Over Penetration...... thoughts

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Eagleks

New member
Watching some different shows the other night, and I'm not sure which show, but it is the one that covers 'cases' that have occurred (murders) and what they went thru, how they figure out who did what, or if they did, etc.

In one, a guy answers the door and is shot instantly in the head and died. His wife hears the gun shot and goes to hide in a room, and gets in a shoving match with the BG with the door. He gets "just" his hand in the crease of the barely open door and shoots a round..... 9mm.

What was interesting to me was, they talked and showed where this 9mm round went.

It went thru a solid wood cabinet door, a house door, thru the wall of the house and into the neighbors roof.

It sure got me wondering what round this guy was shooting.. as it ended up it was a small frame 9 mm gun that I couldn't ID. I've never been too concerned with over-penetration with a 9mm round, but that one got me thinking.... It made me think about over-penetration on some of my rounds, that much more.

Thoughts ? ? Especially on over-penetration of a 9 mm round.
 
Well a fmj roundis going to penetrate more than a hollow point. But then theres the old natural law that when something strikes an object with a given force, the same force is applied to the object. So that bullet is taking a lot of force back. I wouldn't really worry about a fmj overpenetrating if I actually hit the bg.
 
Know your target...and what's beyond.

Most fire fights take place at close range. If your round over penetrates and goes elsewhere...kind of makes one think that a gun should be your last resort. It is for me. But, I take peace in knowing that I am at the range at least three times per week and very accurate, even under extreme pressure.

Hope you all get out there and practice as much as possible so you will never have to worry about missing your target.
 
Any common handgun round can penetrate multiple interior walls. A round that couldn't would not have sufficient penetration to reliably reach the vital organs of a person or animal of similar or larger size. Even bullets designed for reduced penetration such as JHP and Frangible ones can, under the right circumstances, overpenetrate. One should, if at all possible, try to position themselves so that if they have to take a shot, the angle of it will minimize the risk to bystanders.
 
QUOTE: Webl....

Any common handgun round can penetrate multiple interior walls. A round that couldn't would not have sufficient penetration to reliably reach the vital organs of a person or animal of similar or larger size. Even bullets designed for reduced penetration such as JHP and Frangible ones can, under the right circumstances, overpenetrate. One should, if at all possible, try to position themselves so that if they have to take a shot, the angle of it will minimize the risk to bystanders.
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This is something I worry about a lot living in an apartment complex. My brother who is in law enforcement, believes in a shotgun for home defense,
tells me the last thing on my mind if someone is breaking down the door
is over penetration, and that any round will go thru interior walls, and that
if it happened, then I would be sued, but would be better than being carried by six. I guess I am hoping if I ever have to fire a hollowpoint it will stop in the bad guy. My hollow points are all 44 Spl or 38 Spl depending on my guns. This is the reason, I do not want a shotgun for home defense. Are the hollow points giving me a false sense of security regarding penetration issues?
 
I shot the hard drive that was removed from a computer I took to be recycled: first it stopped a 9mm 115 JHP, in disbelief :eek: I shot it again with a 124 FMJ and it stopped it too; each bullet just left a dent in the metal plate, neither made it through that hard drive. Overpenetration....more like underpenetration in this case.
 
My hollow points are all 44 Spl or 38 Spl depending on my guns. This is the reason, I do not want a shotgun for home defense. Are the hollow points giving me a false sense of security regarding penetration issues?
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I have twice seen the results of accidental discharges of handguns loaded with hollowpoints indoors (luckily, no one was hurt either time). The first time, a 110gr .357 Magnum JHP went through one wall, through the corner of an aluminum downspout, and off into a farm field somewhere. In the second case, a .44 Special LSWCHP went through one interior wall, struck carpet and padding at an angle, and slid about a foot along a concrete floor before coming to rest. In neither case was a wall stud hit, only sheetrock and insulation.

I have also seen the result of an accidental discharge with a shotgun as well. As I recall, it was a 16ga loaded with #7 or 7 1/2 birdshot. The pattern penetrated one interior wall, a hollow-core bathroom door, and smashed the bathroom mirror imbedding itself in another wall.

Hollowpoints require hydraulic pressure to exand. Because walls have no water in them, the HP cavity usually becomes clogged with wood, sheetrock, plaster, insulation, etc. and the bullet expand little if at all. A shotgun pattern at typical HD ranges disperses relativley little and often acts more like one large projectile rather than many smaller ones in a kind of synergistic effect. As I said earlier, no firearm or cartridge can be guaranteed never to overpenetrate. As such, I think that overpenetration is more an issue of tactics than equipment.
 
"My brother who is in law enforcement, believes in a shotgun for home defense, tells me the last thing on my mind if someone is breaking down the door is over penetration..."

Agreed, survival is paramount.

If you live in an apartment, a 25ACP, 32ACP, .380 or 9mm Makarov will penetrate significantly less (than 9mm para) thus lessening the chance of unintended damage. I don't care for shotgun defense, cuz I can't carry one in my pocket...but I do carry a small short 3" barreled 45 ACP....and travelling at blackpowder speeds, that 230 gr fmj slug is good enough to stop a bad guy but doesn't do that well vs hard surfaces.
 
I've been shooting for over 50 years and I am still shocked beyond speech when a conversation gets around to home defense. People boast aboud bear killing calibers being used only to discover the have children in adjacent bedrooms. And, as mentioned, people are in apartments, as well. Lots of common walls there, too. So much for natural selection culling out the stupid.

If you have a family at home I suggest doing some research and if possible, a bit of testing. What do you want to shot for HD? Using a standard framing 2 X 4 and a max distance of 15 feet, shoot it. Did it penatrate? Move forward 2 feet, etc. Now you know, positively. That's for interior walls. What's you home siding, insulation and so on?

Even if you live alone, shooting your neighbors is just plain tacky.
 
Shooting paper targets is vastly different than when your target is firing back at you, regardless of how many times a week you go to the range. No matter what your level of firearms training and experience, with the adrenaline pumping in a combat situation, chances are that you will likely miss your target a few times, except for maybe in extreme close quarters shootings.

This is true whether you are military, LE, or armed civilian. The difference is that military personnel in combat don't necessarily have the same level of accountability for each round that is fired from their weapon, like a LEO or armed civilian does, for obvious reasons. As a LEO or armed civilian, we are completely responsible for each and every round discharged from our weapons and we potentially can, and likely will, face criminal charges and/or a civil law suit each time that happens.

There are many different types of ammo out there that can help with overpenetration issues, such as JHPs or Glaser safety slugs, but none completely remove that risk. Then there are also issues of this same ammo not penetrating enough in certain circumstances, such as the target wearing layers of heavy winter clothing.

Regardless of your ammo selection, you must always be aware of what is beyond your intended target, both what you can and cannot actually see.

Although shooting paper targets on a static square range is good, and better than nothing, it does not adequately prepare you to react under the stress of a dynamic critical incident. It only improves your general marksmanship, which will likely go to hell when rounds zip over your head. Research and relevant firearms training are your friends!

I would like to note that I am currently a police sergeant with 15 years in LE and I've previously served 9+ years in the US Army, mostly in Special Forces and Military Intelligence. I am a combat-wounded veteran, a LE firearms instructor, former SWAT member, and I compete in IDPA-type and local action shooting matches. I have also trained with several internationally renowned firearms instructors, such as Rob Pincus of ICE/Combat Focus Shooting, Jason Falla/Redback One, and Blackwater USA, amongst others.
 
Gearing up for active shooter response training some PDs started testing various rounds in school settings. The pistol rounds penetrated far more barriers then rifle rounds.

Drew that is one of the best statements I've ever seen. I punched paper for years and then the SHTF and I got to see what real life was like.
 
:DQuote: Squib
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Even if you live alone, shooting your neighbors is just plain tacky.
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We may not have the choice of how an apartment is constructed. But if a bad guy is breaking the door down to get to me to do me or my disabled daughter harm, I intend to stop him at the entry point. I hope that the round stops in the intruder, but there is no guarantee that it will. I am
however making a guess that my hollow points will not penetrate as much as a shotgun loaded with shot heavy enough to stop the intruder. I suspect that
most of the people here on this forum who live in an apartment complex will
take the shot if the intruder is breaking down the door. :)
 
Although shooting paper targets on a static square range is good, and better than nothing, it does not adequately prepare you to react under the stress of a dynamic critical incident. It only improves your general marksmanship, which will likely go to hell when rounds zip over your head. Research and relevant firearms training are your friends!
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Guess I didn't think that a general discussion would go to extremes so just for the record: I am a combat veteran, have been wounded several times in combat and have been decorated for heroism in combat. After the war, I trained and worked with several Government Agencies, taking instruction from among the best, becoming a Instructor myself. My last Govt. position was that which involved counter-terrorism. Train....train....train...and it was not just stationary square paper targets.

Now, I frequent the range mostly with my cop buddies and we re-enact and train from real life scenarios. My shooting partner is a SWAT instructor.

Don't mean to be blowing my own horn but not all of us are going to spin, crash and burn down in flames as soon as a firefight erupts. I have other LEO friends that only clean and shoot their guns for re-qualification.
 
There were figures for the NYPD in 2002 IIRC where in actual shootouts the police hit their targets 10% of the time ,the other 90% went elsewhere of course !!! :eek: Don't worry so much about overpenetration . Work at hitting the target !
 
Catchabullet; said:
......did the wife live?
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Yes, she lived ... the guy never tried shooting thru the door. They eventually figured out that another person had paid this guy to kill her husband, and he was trying to eliminate her as a witness. She never saw the guy's face. But, she won the push battle at the door, and he gave up and ran. It took a few years before they solved it.

I understand all about hitting your target. But this was not about going thru interior walls, but a solid sturdy wood cabinet door, the exterior wall , and thru the neighbors roof... surprised me. I haven't seen a 9mm go thru all of that, that I've shot.

My cousin, approached a guy who had been shooting at numerous people (cousin an LEO , but dumb..... huh ) and the guy shot him in the stomach with a .38 .... he had on a cowboy belt bucket that it went thru, but it stopped there.... it was found sitting between the buckle and the leather of the belt. He had a big bruise where it hit though.
 
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