Out of my element here - need your help

K

KJVH

Inactive
My father just passed away at 88; he was a corporal in the Army Air Corps from 1942 to 1945 and was an aerial gunner with the 460th bombardment group in Europe.

All I know about this pistol is that he took it from a captured German. It has its leather holster, too, and to my knowledge, he never fired it himself.

From poking around the Internet, it looks like a CZ 27, but I know nothing about guns.

Can someone kindly point me in the right direction? Is it worth anything now, or will it be valuable someday? Should I do anything to preserve it?

Many thanks.

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Uh, you do know the story.

Germany took over the arms industry of the countries they conquered.
They tweaked Czech and other Mausers to their specs for regular issue.
Pistols were easier, a .32 auto was most useful as a badge of rank or last ditch defense by a garrison soldier against a partisan. There wasn't much need for support, they didn't get enough use to require much maintenance.

So some German was issued a Czech pistol and the Americans took it away from him because a. they didn't want him to shoot at them and b. pistols were highly regarded souvenirs.
 
More good information - thanks, Jim. I was just musing about this particular gun's provenance -- whose was it? How many Americans did it kill? Is its original owner still alive? SO many questions, and so many WWII vets just never talked about it. My father wouldn't. If the gun could talk, it'd be a tremendous story.

Not sure what to do with it now: Put it away for my kids? Or maybe they're so common, it won't be worth much? Should it be cleaned and preserved somehow? WHat would you suggest?
 
KJ,
If it were mine.

I would invest in some Break-Free CLP spray. Just keep it oiled up lightly - the bore as well - and stick it away for your kids.

The FNH military blue finish is the second most common variation. Yours looks to be in really nice shape with no chip missing from the bottom forward edge of the grip.
That is a very common occurence with the CZs.

Your pistols grips are the 'no logo' variation and are an early use of them. Most occur later in the serial sequence.

Is the top of the slide blank with look like milling marks- except for serial number and proof- or does it show casting marks?

If the left side of the pistol and grip is as clean as the right and the holster is a correct CZ, I would venture that it would move quickly should you decide to put it up on an auction.

But again, I would keep it for the kids as a momento of their Grandfather's contribution to this Country.

JT
 
JT, thank you so much. I didn't bring it home with me, as I was flying, but next time I'm at my mom's, I will photograph it more extensively.

Come to think of it, what's the best way to get it home? I live some 900 miles away.

Thank you again!

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Sorry for your loss. With the passage of time, these men are passing, and their trophies are coming to light on the market in fair numbers.

I can't tell you anything about your specific gun, but I can tell you a bit about these guns in general.

One thing is the story behind them. The story is usually "taken off a German" or "taken off a Nazi", often an officer. And its very likely somebody did.

Nazi uniforms almost always included a dagger and/or a pistol of some kind with their dress unifom. Not just soldiers, but political positions wore unifoms as well. So there was a huge demand for handguns. Captured guns, and guns made in captured factories were used. Also, privately owned guns found their way into Nazi uniform holsters as well.

If your gun was issued by the Nazi administration, there will be a WaA Pruf marking. The marking may be small, and may be poorly struck, and incomplete, but if the gun was officially used by Nazi Germany, it will be there. There are variations of the mark, but it is usually a stylized Nazi Eagle, the letters WaA, and often the number 135. A poorly struck proof can look like a couple sets of lines (the eagle's wings).

If the Waffen Amt Pruf (weapons office proofmark) is not there, it doesn't mean that the gun wasn't used by them, only that it wasn't officially issued (and proofed).

As to getting the gun back the 900 miles to your home, that depends on where it is, and where you are. It may be legal for you to transport the gun yourself, it may not. The laws where you are, and where it is, determine this. One way that is legal is to have the gun shipped from a dealer where it is, to one where you are. This costs a little bit, with dealer fees and insurance, but guarantees you are within all applicable laws. If you are required to have a permit of some kind for a handgun where you live, you will need to get that, before you can pick up the gun from the recieving dealer.

Hope this helps.
 
Assuming it is your gun (at least temporarily), and if it is legal for you to possess it and legal to own in your state or city,* you can ship it iin checked luggage. You have to let the airline and TSA people know you are checking in a gun, and may have to prove to them that it is unloaded. It needs to be in a locked case, but can be inside a suitcase. Check the airline for specific rules or regulations that may apply. Get the rules off their web site and be prepared for static from the airline rep or TSA. Hopefully there will be no problem.

The CZ 27 (Model 27) was a .32 conversion of the Model 24, which was .380 ACP caliber. It was made by Ceska Zbrojovka Strakonice in Czechoslovakia, renamed Bohmische Waffenfabrik after the German occupation. While the gun was made before the German takeover, the bulk of production was for the Germans, who had some 250,000 made, including yours. The Germans preferred .32 to .380 because the latter was not in their normal supply system. The CZ 27 was much simplified and was a common gun in WWII and they were widely issued by the Germans. The manufacturer's code "fnh" was the Czech factory. The Germans called the gun the Modell 27(t), the "t" being the abbreviation for Tschechoslowakei, the German spelling of Czechoslovakia.

* If you live in NY, NJ, Chicago, or DC better not try to take it home until you do a lot of checking with the police and an attorney in your area.

Jim
 
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I won't doubt anything anyone has said in the previous posts, but I would wonder about how an enlisted aerial gunner on a bomber crew large enough to be based pretty far from any contact with "live" Germans, would receive a weapon directly from a POW? Perhaps he made a trade with another GI who had made the contact. That's how I got my Tokarev in Vietnam. I bought it from our Houseboy who claimed he got it from some relative who was in the RVN Army. I have no idea what the real story is about my gun.

Whatever the real story is it is probably buried in the lost tales as folks pass on. Keep it to pass to your kids as I will do to mine.
 
Mayor Al, a trade sounds the likeliest explanation to me. My father spoke fluent German and understood both Polish and one of the Slavic languages because of his parents, so I suppose he could have been involved in other aspects that we don't know about. I know he was based in Italy.

My mom's in Florida, and I'm in New York, so I will look into legalities. Thanks for that information!

You all are a great group, and I so appreciate your taking the time to share your vast knowledge with me.
 
Is the first number of the serial number a "5"? If so, that would put it after the German occupation, and before the Communist takeover. It's hard to tell in the photos whether it's a "5" or a "3" and there appears to be a small mark on the right rear side of the frame which could be WaA76, but the photo isn't clear enough to say for sure.

The CZ27 was produced into the early 1950's. The earliest post occupation guns all have the crude machining and phosphate finish, as the Czechs just wanted to rearm as fast as possible. After the Communist takeover, the guns were marked "Narodni Podnik," and sported a nicer finish, almost up to prewar standards.

The crucial point here is the presence or absence of any WaA markings.
 
The serial number is 364139. Is that helpful?

I didn't handle it, as I have no experience with guns. Just slid it out of the holster, took a picture, flipped it over and took a picture, slid it back in and put it away. I'll have a more thorough look when I visit my mom next time.
 
The serial number is 364139. Is that helpful?
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Yes, that is definitely helpful. Guns in that S/N range are occupation guns.

Also, horse trading was very commonplace between GIs in WWII. My father had a Mauser broomhandle with stock that he traded to a guy from Maine (who wanted to poach with it) for a 1922 Browning. Unfortunately, as was so common in those days, he got rid of the Browning when I was born ('47), fearing an accident.

Your dad might very well have traded a carton of cigarettes (e.g.) for that gun.

It's truly sad that so many details are now lost. My father (who passed last Sept. 1) was in the Bulge and I only heard the sketchiest of stories about it.
 
The gun is definitely from the German occupation period; it has the German code and the markings are in German, not Czech.

KJVH, if you are in New York, best not even think about bringing that gun with you; you would be arrested as soon as you got off the plane for possessing an unregistered handgun. (The airlines always tell the cops at the destination that a gun is being checked through. If it is not legal at the destination, the cops arrest the owner and confiscate the gun.)

If you want to have that gun in New York, you have to see a New York dealer. You get him to send a copy of his FFL to your people in FL who can then either get a FL dealer to ship the gun by USPS or ship it themselves (UPS or FedEx) to the NY dealer, who will advise you how to get the proper license and police approval to take possession of it. (I understand that in some areas, a bribe to the police will be a part of the transaction, and that might exceed the value of the gun. No problem for the Mafia, of course.)

Jim
 
New York City or New York State? I understand there are some variations in law between them...

Nice pistol, great way to remember the fallen heros, especially on Memorial Day.
 
Nice old pistol.

Look very carefully into the ny laws before you attempt to bring it here! Doing it the wrong way may cost you your freedom and the pistol.

I would leave it in FL unless you plan on staying in ny your entire life.
 
Upstate NY - near Albany. Yipes -- I sure don't want to get arrested!!!! My mom's always hated having it in the house -- perhaps it would be best to sell it. How would I go about doing that? Any ideas?
 
go to www.handgunlaw.us/states/newyork.pdf

Gary has a good site that will get you started on NY State Law as concerns handguns. You don't need to worry about a carry permit if you just plan to keep it at home.

Do your homework and you will be fine. Don't take your prize to NY City! It is legal for you to bring it home without an FFL transfer if it part of an inheritance. You only need to know that you are complying with NY State Law. It does look like you do need a license to possess in your dwelling there.
 
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