Model12Win
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out gunned and out numbered
- Thread starter Koda94
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DannyB1954
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In my CCW class the instructor asked, if you were in a shopping mall near an exit and you heard gunfire, what is your best response?
The answer was to leave. It is your job to protect yourself and loved ones. The people who are being shot at had the chance to get their own CCW permit. You are not there to protect everyone. You get in a gun battle then another CCW permit holder, or Police Officer sees you and thinks that you are the bad Guy etc.
In this particular case it may be proved that the hostages were all shot by "friendly fire".
The answer was to leave. It is your job to protect yourself and loved ones. The people who are being shot at had the chance to get their own CCW permit. You are not there to protect everyone. You get in a gun battle then another CCW permit holder, or Police Officer sees you and thinks that you are the bad Guy etc.
In this particular case it may be proved that the hostages were all shot by "friendly fire".
"I'm not about to start a shoot out in a bank."
It is not smart for a citizen (or even a cop) to start a shootout anywhere that innocent people will be involved except as an absolutely last resort. Any attempt to play hero could very easily cause the robbers to open fire and kill a dozen people when they otherwise would have taken the money and left.
One of the points in police training is when NOT to be super macho and just cool it and remember descriptions, and characteristics for future use. Some folks think a gun in their belt or a badge on their chest makes them God and in control of everything. Some have found out that they were wrong.
Jim
It is not smart for a citizen (or even a cop) to start a shootout anywhere that innocent people will be involved except as an absolutely last resort. Any attempt to play hero could very easily cause the robbers to open fire and kill a dozen people when they otherwise would have taken the money and left.
One of the points in police training is when NOT to be super macho and just cool it and remember descriptions, and characteristics for future use. Some folks think a gun in their belt or a badge on their chest makes them God and in control of everything. Some have found out that they were wrong.
Jim
I'm voting with the consensus. My carry gun is for one purpose only. To save my life or the life of a loved one (great bodily harm is included). I would most likely act to protect another from losing their life or from receiving great bodily harm (or rape). I say that because I alone, have to live with my conscience. However, when it comes to OPM (other people's money such as a bank), or other material things,let them take it and be gone. Insurance will replace what was taken.
Another aspect to consider, there were at least four gunmen. Sometimes it is better to be lucky than good and if it is not my lucky day, I wouldn't push those odds in a closed environment.
In this particular incident, a gun battle in the bank would have been instant death for a lot more people.
Another aspect to consider, there were at least four gunmen. Sometimes it is better to be lucky than good and if it is not my lucky day, I wouldn't push those odds in a closed environment.
In this particular incident, a gun battle in the bank would have been instant death for a lot more people.
Even when I was on duty I'd not consider a shoot out in a public building unless I was going to get shot. I did 10 years as a detective so it wasn't obvious I was the man. Wearing a uniform in such a situation could get unhealthy real quick.
Now I'm disabled & carry but I would not react like an officer these days.
Too old....too crippled.
Now I'm disabled & carry but I would not react like an officer these days.
Too old....too crippled.
Deaf Smith
New member
NYPD lady cop, years ago, walked into a bank robbery. Three robbers, all armed, one with a .45 Auto.
She had a Chiefs .38. She wounded two of them and captured all three.
It's not the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog.
Deaf
She had a Chiefs .38. She wounded two of them and captured all three.
It's not the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog.
Deaf
Onward Allusion
New member
The guy upstairs was looking out for that lady officer. IOW, she got real lucky.
Deaf Smith
New member
The trick is this.
Most 'teams' of robbers are not trained to work together. All they have is a 'plan A'. Once that plan goes to pot then their OODA loops have no way to coordinate an IMMEDIATE response.
You see this time and time again when multiple robbers in a store react when someone fires back at them. They panic and make a fast messy exit.
True, a few robbery teams may consist of trained individuals who have worked together as a team and have reaction drills for different scenarios planned and burned in by lots of team training but they are very very few.
The three the NYPD cop bopped into assumed everyone would comply and when gunfire erupted they fell apart.
Deaf
Most 'teams' of robbers are not trained to work together. All they have is a 'plan A'. Once that plan goes to pot then their OODA loops have no way to coordinate an IMMEDIATE response.
You see this time and time again when multiple robbers in a store react when someone fires back at them. They panic and make a fast messy exit.
True, a few robbery teams may consist of trained individuals who have worked together as a team and have reaction drills for different scenarios planned and burned in by lots of team training but they are very very few.
The three the NYPD cop bopped into assumed everyone would comply and when gunfire erupted they fell apart.
Deaf
Deaf has pretty much summed it up. Yes they got a gun, wether or not if its loaded or not they got it. They may even have multiple guns and ammo. Probably haven't shot a gun in years. They prey on weaker people because they know probably 99% is unarmed and if they are they are not willing to do nothing but sit back.
Same for Columbine students, police sit outside of school because same as these posts on here- they were safe. So they just let the gunmen shoot fish in a barrel.
I'm not saying to pull gun out and save the banks money but I'm not saying as long as I'm safe to be a witness either. If Anyone in bank gets assaulted or threatened the if you truly train with your conceiled weapon, 3 against 1 aren't such bad odds. Especially you have the first move so the first shot it should only be 2 against 1 and when it hits the fan they aren't fully prepared what's happening. They then probably decide screw the money they're just deciding to leave alive. And if it does go bad then that's the way it goes. You should be prepared physically, mentally on doing and helping each person who's being threatened not just yours. I believe so many mentality now is if its now happening to you just walk fast the other direction. Shame on you !!!
Same for Columbine students, police sit outside of school because same as these posts on here- they were safe. So they just let the gunmen shoot fish in a barrel.
I'm not saying to pull gun out and save the banks money but I'm not saying as long as I'm safe to be a witness either. If Anyone in bank gets assaulted or threatened the if you truly train with your conceiled weapon, 3 against 1 aren't such bad odds. Especially you have the first move so the first shot it should only be 2 against 1 and when it hits the fan they aren't fully prepared what's happening. They then probably decide screw the money they're just deciding to leave alive. And if it does go bad then that's the way it goes. You should be prepared physically, mentally on doing and helping each person who's being threatened not just yours. I believe so many mentality now is if its now happening to you just walk fast the other direction. Shame on you !!!
I'd be content to be a good witness unless I thought someone was about to be raped or killed. Taking hostages or herding people into a back room counts, in my opinion, as you pretty quickly lose the ability to act very effectively and those actions can and have lead to all the hostages dying quickly.
I don't think I'd want to wait until they got around to searching/restraining me before acting. I'd rather they be focused on someone else when I make a move. Also, if I have a ranged weapon and am confident in my marksmanship, I'd rather be a smaller MOA target!
I don't think I'd want to wait until they got around to searching/restraining me before acting. I'd rather they be focused on someone else when I make a move. Also, if I have a ranged weapon and am confident in my marksmanship, I'd rather be a smaller MOA target!
Surrendering suggests a belief that the best chance to survive an armed encounter is to rely upon the humanity of criminals. Maybe sometimes it is, but if a person has any idea of the horror the human species is capable of inflicting upon a helpless victim, then to die fighting no longer seems the worst possible outcome.
As long as a person regards a gun pointed in his direction as a precursor only to a rational business interaction then surrendering most of the time appears preferable. A criminal will almost never attack unless he believes he has an overwhelming advantage, and he will usually assess the situation with the experience gained from committing a great many similar crimes, which means that he has probably read the situation correctly. Worse, until you surrender and accept the role of helpless victim, there is no reliable way to gauge the level of viciousness a particular criminal might use.
So, knowing that you will never face an even fight against a criminal, except in one of those rare cases when a criminal badly miscalculates, if you absolutely refuse to fight against odds, when will you fight?
As long as a person regards a gun pointed in his direction as a precursor only to a rational business interaction then surrendering most of the time appears preferable. A criminal will almost never attack unless he believes he has an overwhelming advantage, and he will usually assess the situation with the experience gained from committing a great many similar crimes, which means that he has probably read the situation correctly. Worse, until you surrender and accept the role of helpless victim, there is no reliable way to gauge the level of viciousness a particular criminal might use.
So, knowing that you will never face an even fight against a criminal, except in one of those rare cases when a criminal badly miscalculates, if you absolutely refuse to fight against odds, when will you fight?
Worse, until you surrender and accept the role of helpless victim, there is no reliable way to gauge the level of viciousness a particular criminal might use.
Well said. The best course may be to do nothing, the best course may be decisive action with full commitment. Whatever happens, happens.
Plenty of women and small children have successfully fought off attackers who were bigger, stronger and had an advantage.
Jeanne Assam dropped a guy with a 9mm who was firing at her with a .223 from 15 ft away. (New Life Church incident in Colorado Springs)
Well said. The best course may be to do nothing, the best course may be decisive action with full commitment. Whatever happens, happens.
Plenty of women and small children have successfully fought off attackers who were bigger, stronger and had an advantage.
Jeanne Assam dropped a guy with a 9mm who was firing at her with a .223 from 15 ft away. (New Life Church incident in Colorado Springs)
Does it get any worse? Three well-armed perps, using three women as human shields. The one surviving perp said he would be dead if he had not used the female hostage as a shield. Unbelievable. You can't make up scenarios like this.
When I visit a bank, the carry package is heavy: one 44 Magnum in a quick draw holster, one 10mm 1911 in a shoulder holster, and one micro 45 1911 on the ankle.
"...when will you fight? " [40-82]
The second they crash the door.
When I visit a bank, the carry package is heavy: one 44 Magnum in a quick draw holster, one 10mm 1911 in a shoulder holster, and one micro 45 1911 on the ankle.
"...when will you fight? " [40-82]
The second they crash the door.
So you carry three guns to the bank... And would open fire soon as the robbers came thru the door? Lol. Hopefully its not my bank.
Remember any innocent who is injured or dies in the ensuing gunfight is on your hands. You escalted the situation from a robbery to a shoot out.
I'd have so say that's terrible advice.
Remember any innocent who is injured or dies in the ensuing gunfight is on your hands. You escalted the situation from a robbery to a shoot out.
I'd have so say that's terrible advice.
"I'd have so say that's terrible advice. " [Venom1956]
It's not advice, it's what I would do, what you would do is your business.
I don't like a gun pointed at me, being forced into submission, being used as a human shield, having shots fired at me, being thrown out of a car at high speed.
At my bank there are heavy double doors, you must come thru the first double-door, cross the foyer, open and come thru the 2nd double-door to get into the bank.
I visit the bank during off-hours when there is little traffic, because I don't like lines. There is one, maybe two customers present, oftentimes none. I keep one eye on the doors because you can easily easily see anyone approaching.
By the time the perps are at the second door I'm ready. That's what I do.
Point a gun at me, that is an imminent deadly threat.
You can deduce the rest.
It's not advice, it's what I would do, what you would do is your business.
I don't like a gun pointed at me, being forced into submission, being used as a human shield, having shots fired at me, being thrown out of a car at high speed.
At my bank there are heavy double doors, you must come thru the first double-door, cross the foyer, open and come thru the 2nd double-door to get into the bank.
I visit the bank during off-hours when there is little traffic, because I don't like lines. There is one, maybe two customers present, oftentimes none. I keep one eye on the doors because you can easily easily see anyone approaching.
By the time the perps are at the second door I'm ready. That's what I do.
Point a gun at me, that is an imminent deadly threat.
You can deduce the rest.
"Point a gun at me, that is an imminent deadly threat." Seaman.
One of the downsides of armed criminality is that there are a few people floating about like Seaman who take it hard if you point a gun at them.
As a society we should be ashamed that in too many of our political jurisdictions should a man like Seaman live to see the aftermath, he would face more life altering trouble than any of the criminals he fought who lived to see the inside of a courtroom.
One of the downsides of armed criminality is that there are a few people floating about like Seaman who take it hard if you point a gun at them.
As a society we should be ashamed that in too many of our political jurisdictions should a man like Seaman live to see the aftermath, he would face more life altering trouble than any of the criminals he fought who lived to see the inside of a courtroom.
It really doesn't matter how well armed the three robbers are. If anything, over-arming themselves shows lack of preparation and lack of true confidence in what they are doing. They could have twenty guns, but each one can only shoot one at a time (effectively).
Would I take all three of them on? If they were only concerned with robbing the bank, no. If they started to go after bank customers, perhaps I would. It would really depend on whether I could find decent cover. No cover, no chance of me taking on three armed thugs unless they already had me in their sights.
Would I take all three of them on? If they were only concerned with robbing the bank, no. If they started to go after bank customers, perhaps I would. It would really depend on whether I could find decent cover. No cover, no chance of me taking on three armed thugs unless they already had me in their sights.
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