Our guns are more accurate then us

Customization to make the gun fit the individual is a useful thing, that I do and others do.

But, I think there is a tendency, particularly with some new shooters to believe that it takes a semi custom or custom gun to shoot accurately when it doesn't. It requires a decent ammo and practice.

An example pulled from memory...a few years back I was at my indoor range shooting and a man next to me asked if I could try his gun. He said it was shooting terribly. It was a 9mm S&W Sigma, an early one. I asked him to shoot it some and I watched. He produced dinner plate groups at 7 yards. It was poor. So I shot it and did less poorly.

He said that was great and that he thought it was the gun but saw it was him and felt good he had not wasted his money.

But he wasn't all right or wrong. The trigger on the Sigma had a long squishy and gritty trigger with a break that seemed to differ from shot to shot. It required serious concentration to place the rounds inside 2-3" at 7 yards as I did. Had I worked at it over time I could have improved some.

For the gentleman shooting what I did was a step up. With practice he could do better.

But the Sigma is a rare gun with a very poor trigger (I've heard they reworked it in the intervening years, I don't know, I never looked at another one).

A Sig 229, A Glock 19, a Colt Defender, a Ruger Redhawk all these are guns that in my experience shoot very well out the box and rarely need work to shoot better. But all can benefit with small things to suit the shooter.

Most shooters with a few years experience are better off with a good gun out the box than $700. worth of custom work. The latter is most worth it once you know what you need.

tipoc
 
I am a shooter who favors accurate guns. There is a lot of information on the internet, both right and wrong, about how you need to spend "X" thousands of dollars to get that accurate handgun. On the other hand you will see/hear numerous stories about uncle Fred's Glock/XD/MP/etc that just tears one hole @ 20 yards. Not saying they are incorrect in all cases but that is not what I have seen in over 40 years of competitive shooting with rifles and handguns. The most accurate handgun I have cost just over $1500 new, was never modified, and it is capable of 1-hole groups @ 25 and even 50 yards. The only place I came across similarly accurate handguns is at a match, never just at the local range plinking around (see below).

I do agree 100% that you will get more performance from a handgun that fits you. That is why you see all of the serious accurate equipment is adjustable. Only with an accurate handgun that fits you will you ever find out truly how well you can shoot. Until that point you will always be asking is it you or the gun. YMMV

PardiniFPM-1_zps8e8fa167.jpg
 
I think that it's pretty much true for all of us. The older I get, the more I'm certain of it. The sad trught is . . . if we live long enough . . we'll probably have a better chance of hitting the target by throwing the handgun at it than by shooting at it. :D:eek:
 
Mostly I agree with the OP- however, I do have a S&W Victory Model in .38SW Ctg that I just can't get to group well at all. I'm sure I could order the dies, lead, shell holders, etc and try some reloads... but I just don't see me doing that any time soon.

I've tried Remington, old Winchester, old Federal, Precision brand factory loads (145 and 146gr) and none of them impress me at all. Usually, I don't hold onto boogered up or inaccurate firearms- but I keep hanging onto this one for whatever reason. Guess I'm waiting for the day I come across some .38-200 ammo to feed through it to see if that doesn't get a 10yd group to come in under 6".
 
Only with an accurate handgun that fits you will you ever find out truly how well you can shoot. Until that point you will always be asking is it you or the gun.

Well, no. See it's easy to answer that question. Ask a better shooter than you to shoot it and see how they do. If they do better than you, it's you. If they do worse or as good, it's the gun.

This stuff isn't magic.

tipoc
 
Mostly I agree with the OP- however, I do have a S&W Victory Model in .38SW Ctg that I just can't get to group well at all. I'm sure I could order the dies, lead, shell holders, etc and try some reloads... but I just don't see me doing that any time soon.

I've tried Remington, old Winchester, old Federal, Precision brand factory loads (145 and 146gr) and none of them impress me at all. Usually, I don't hold onto boogered up or inaccurate firearms- but I keep hanging onto this one for whatever reason. Guess I'm waiting for the day I come across some .38-200 ammo to feed through it to see if that doesn't get a 10yd group to come in under 6".

Good points but you do know that 38 S&W and 38 S&W Special are two different cartridges with different diameter bullets. Shooting 38 Spl. through a 38 S&W barrel will likely produce poor accuracy. Especially in a 70 year old gun.

tipoc
 
When I am at the shooting range and talk with a shooter is is trying to get better groups or shoot to the center of the target they usually end up talking about adjusting the sights or the trigger or something. This when I suggest they go from shooting at a 12 inch target to shooting at at 5 inch target. Then I hand them a 5 inch Shoot-N-C target and say give it a go.

Every time I've done that, the person saw an instant improvement in their shots. It is so much fun to see their reaction.

It's the shooter, not the gun!!!!
 
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I think my post was misunderstood. Handgun accuracy is a function of the bore/chamber relationship. An oversized bore, misaligned chamber, or in the case of revolvers with which I am more familiar, chamber throat size in relation to bore, contribute to or detract from accuracy. A chamber that aligns perfectly, or as near perfectly as humanly possible to make it, with a smooth lapped bore with a correctly crowned muzzle will deliver superb accuracy.

But all that in a gun with an action that provides a six or eight pound pull with creep and overtravel, or poor lockup, will not deliver the best of accuracy.

My newest revolver is a Colt New Frontier in .45 Colt caliber. The trigger pull on my gun was stiff and heavy, broke clean with no overtravel. It is now in the shop for adjustment. Neither I nor any of my companions were able to wring the best accuracy from that gun as it came from the factory.

Here is the first target shot while trying to zero in the gun:



Hopefully a trigger job and slicking up will reduce that group.

Bob Wright
 
Inherent accuracy is difficult to measure, but some guns make the job easier for the shooter than others. It is all in the trigger and ergonomics.

At 7 yards a Glock will do "just fine" comparing to a new X-Six, but the Glock will be left in the mud 20 yards and beyond. Given the amount of ammo needed to "teach" a new shooter basics using a Glock, you might as well just get the X-Six to begin with.

*Talking strictly from a competition POV.
 
Good points but you do know that 38 S&W and 38 S&W Special are two different cartridges with different diameter bullets. Shooting 38 Spl. through a 38 S&W barrel will likely produce poor accuracy. Especially in a 70 year old gun.

As far as I know- my Victory has never had a .38 Special ctg fired through it, and I'm pretty sure the cylinder is stepped too short to allow one to even be placed into it. I know it hasn't for as long as I've had it- 8 or so years now. I've been reloading .38 Specials for about 15 years now, and know quite well the differences. I'm just not inclined to to get all geared up to reload it.
 
mechanical accuracy

Clamp a handgun in a Ransom Rest, with good ammo, and one will quickly see how poor a shot he may be.

Shooting a handgun well, even supported, is a challenging task for a lot of folks. Add unsupported, under stress for what ever reason, and the difficulty level only increases.

Most of us are fanatics here, but the average guy likely does not shoot a handgun enough to really get even close to its potential. And if you are fortunate enough to have access to the ammo and time to get to your potential, staying there will require more dedication as well. Add to that the slow but certain deterioration of eyes and coordination, and it's an uphill battle after a certain point.

Certainly some handguns are more mechanically accurate than others. But I'd wager most any quality handgun is intrinsically more accurate than we are.
 
Jeff Cooper said: "Since the dispersion of the weapon is added to that of the shooter, it can only be desired that the weapon have no dispersion at all."
 
Jeff Cooper said: "Since the dispersion of the weapon is added to that of the shooter, it can only be desired that the weapon have no dispersion at all."

Cooper also knew that having no dispersion at all is impossible. If you give me the source for that quote I'll take a look and see what else he said in the surrounding sentences.

tipoc
 
This thread brings to mind a time when a gentleman came to the shop to commission me to build him a custom competition gun.

He was a USPSA/IPSC shooter and wanted the gun to be able to shoot all A's.

I informed him that building a gun capable of shooting all A's would not be difficult but getting the shooter capable to shoot all A's might be a different story.

He gave me a big grin and said the cost of doing so would be a lot more then the cost of the gun too.

Best Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com
 
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