OUCH, . . . swat team in your back yard

[12GaugeShuggoth]

During a no knock, do the LE officers entering always announce who they are? And how liable would a person be if it were found out to be the wrong house and an officer were to be injured?

Try google and "Ryan Frederick" for a fairly recent event. Conflicting information has been going back and forth about it, especially regarding whether the police announced themselves and whether Frederick understood what was going on since he had been asleep. More info. came out that the police didn't have any substantial evidence against Frederick prior to the raid, making the raid even more suspicious. I don't really support either side, as it seems both parties made bad decisions at one point or another.

All of it is scary stuff if you ask me. Cops have to do their job, and armed citizens feel the need to defend themselves. Too many variables can throw a big pile of poo on everyone's day.

 

[Erik]

http://hamptonroads.com/2008/09/fredericks-lawyer-wants-evidence-found-search-thrown-out

To sum up the bad guy's assertions:

The bad guy's argument is that the CI stole his MJ plants, and in doing so committed a crime, and in doing so nullified the warrant's legitimacy. Being wary of having his MJ grow burglarized, he was quick to respond to people at his door presumably to force entry; people he did not, of course, realize were the police. He fired twice through the door.

"“In reality, the informer did not 'observe’ marijuana plants, he stole them,” Broccoletti argued..." Broccoletti is the bad guy's lawyer, and the burglary of the MJ grow is pivotal to the defense he is mounting. That the CI committed the burglary and that the police knew that are his assertions.

A veritable poster child. At best, he's an admitted grower, and presumed user, who shot through twice through a door at a group of police serving a knock warrant, killing one. At best...

But that's a drift.

---

Back on target:

How many documented instances of people using computers to send police to the wrong address are there? Of those, how many warrants have been served, or exigent circumstances exceptions to the warrant requirement made? How many people have been injured or killed? I'd like to know, if anyone happens to know.

 

[guntotin_fool]

Lots of loopholes throughout the entire scenario. Both sides.

No Knocks are getting cops killed, and yet they continue to use them. No knocks are costing lots of cities big money, but they are allowing them. No knocks have killed a few innocent civilians, and that means right there they have to stop. PERIOD. end of discussion. In America, we do not allow the Law to kill innocent Citizens. As soon as we say well its just a few, we have broken the Code of Honor that the Constitution was written to protect.

Frankly, at my house, with my door, dogs and situation, they would lose badly.

Its a pretty simple concept, Police are NEVER allowed to kill Citizens who have not committed a crime.

if we want to stop this stuff, do this, its very simple

If a Cop messes up. or a bunch of cops mess up. ALL DAMAGES are paid out by the individual. retirements, 401K's etc are cashed out when they break the law. If that does not supply the required money, then overtime and payraise money is tapped for the whole department.

Making tax payers pay for bad cops only rewards the cops. hurt the bad cops in the pay envelope. Take away retirement benies to pay judgements. All of a sudden cops have to operate under the same rules as anyone else, your actions will hurt you in the wallet. If you screw up bad enough,and brother officers lose pay raises and overtime because of you, they will tell you to find another line of work. Its called cleaning from the inside out. It works well.

 

[stephen426]

This is not a good situation at all. The cops think you're tha bad guy and will shoot you if you resist. You get a rude awakening and assume the worst and arm yourself. I wish they could require a call back directly to the house for suspicious calls rather than simply sending in the SWAT Team.

There have been home invasions where the criminals dressed up as police and forced their way inside the home. I hate to sound naive, but if someone busts down my door and yells police, I throw my hands up and surrender. I'm not going to hold them at gun point while I ask for ID. I'm not a criminal and I live in a good area, but mistakes do happen. I'm not ready to take the chance and accidentally shoot an officer, and likely to be gunned down myself (if they send in a team).

Basically, if I see a bunch of flashing lights and people with police emblazoned across their vests, I will walk out with my hands up and let them sort out whatever mistake they have made. Doing anything else is likely to be suicide.

 

[mskdgunman]

As far as dogs are concerned, EVERY dog I have ever seen present during a search warrant has turned tail and run. No matter what the breed or how bad a dog. ten or more guys, flash bangs, loud, aggressive movement..I've yet to see a dog hang around. Thats not to say I won't see the one that will tomorrow but, thats what Tasers and pepper spray are for. We usually find them hiding in a back room or under a car in the yard. They may bark, which is sometimes all a BG needs to set up an ambush, but actively attack...I personally have never seen it although there have been a couple close calls with "fear biters".

As far as cops hitting the wrong residences, it unfortuantely does happen. I personally don't understand how but it does. When I write a warrant, I'm painfully accurate as to where my target is to include ground photos (air photos also if possible) and landmarks. I also make sure that the otehr members of the unit all know what the place looks like daytime or night time.

If I know my target is heavily armed or inclined to resist, the last place I want to take you on is your house which is home turf. If I think a target is bad enough, I'll try and take him a different way and then hit the house...everybody has to go to the store or to work or someplace eventually. It's just a matter of planning...and some luck.

I think the best way not to get shot either by accident or on purpose, is to comply immediately and work things out once the smoke clears. When the guys come in the door, they're probably not going to give up the momentum because someone shouts that they're calling the police. For all we know, they're loading magazines and trying to buy time

 

[zxcvbob]

There have been home invasions where the criminals dressed up as police and forced their way inside the home. I hate to sound naive, but if someone busts down my door and yells police, I throw my hands up and surrender. I'm not going to hold them at gun point while I ask for ID. I'm not a criminal and I live in a good area, but mistakes do happen. I'm not ready to take the chance and accidentally shoot an officer, and likely to be gunned down myself (if they send in a team).

Basically, if I see a bunch of flashing lights and people with police emblazoned across their vests, I will walk out with my hands up and let them sort out whatever mistake they have made. [emphasis added] Doing anything else is likely to be suicide.

That's a fundamental observation that we've all been missing. But what if they burst in yelling "Police" and there's no flashbang, no flashing lights, etc? In that case I will surrender if they have to drop on me, or shoot if I have the drop on them.

 

[pax]

Well, it looks as if the thread isn't going to focus on home defense tactics, but instead everyone wants to argue about the value and legitimacy of no-knock warrants.

Closing this one.

If you want to have that argument about the law and civil rights, please take it over to the Law & Civil Rights sub-forum, just a few links further down the main page.

Thanks,

pax