Other than inability to chamber hot ammo, what's wrong with break-top revolver design

O

Oleg Volk

Staff Alumnus
Just curious why Webley-wtyle guns are not more common in calibers over .22? Seems that, other than the action strength, these have certain advantages (simultaneous automatic ejection, ease of reloading esp. with full moon clips). Seems that the design would be perfect for pocket guns in .32/.38 and other low pressure calibers...

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Oleg "cornered rat" Volk (JPFO,NRA)

http://dd-b.net/RKBA
 
me too...I always liked that design...and you would figure that with modern metalurgy(sp?) they could make something workable...

G
 
IMO, fashion's more the reason than flaws in the design.And,modern materials and better techniques can make up for the lower pressure limits.

Posit a 5 shot 40 S&W on a K frame sized weapon, with top break and a 4 inch bbl. Use full moon clips.Make it DA only and bob the hammer to reduce snag opportunities. Maybe make it titanium to drop the weight. What a backup/CCW!!Or, in 9X19 it'd be equivalent to the ubiquitous Jframe, kind of a BodyGuard on steroids.

Way back, I had a Webley someone worked over to 45 LC. Quite a shooter, only drawback was tightening all those screws up after each shooting session.No, I didn't use hot loads in it either.
 
Oleg--interesting topic. One problem is that the latch tends to wear and loosen over time. I've seen this on old top-breaks that have been used a lot. Another is a disadvantage in frame rigidity compared with a solid frame. I expect that these problems are not prohibitive, or top-breaks wouldn't have been so successful for so many years. I do think that the latches on Schofield and Webley top-breaks are a stronger design than the customary S&W and H&R latches.

BTW, I'm with DeakonG--I've always liked top-breaks. So, I was sorry to hear (if the rumor is true) that H&R has discontinued its Model 999. I had a chance to buy a 4-inch 999 last year but didn't act quickly enough.

The gunshop in my area recently took in trade an H&R Defender, similar to the 999, but in caliber .38 S&W and with a shorter barrel. It had been in someone's sock drawer for years, and is really a nice piece. Sure enough, the frame and top strap are a little loose where they came together at the latch. If this looseness got no worse, I suppose it would have no more practical effect than a slight amount of cylinder endshake in a solid frame revolver.



[This message has been edited by jimmy (edited February 17, 2000).]
 
For Sale(not really) - turn-of-the-century S&W break-top in 38 S&W. Some discolored nickel, but otherwise a good shooter for such a little pocket pistol. It was my great-uncle's carry gun and I have grown to like it quite a lot after thinking for years that it was just an underpowered curiosity. Okay, it is an underpowered curiosity. Trivia time - which way does the cylinder turn on these old S$Ws? John
 
Not a darn thing wrong with em. I have a H&R pre 999 target model 9 shot .22 in single action only. Bluing is phenomenal. Like an early Colt. Very accurate. Also fast to empty. I would like to know when it was made. SA only. Says "Single Action" on barrel.
 
schofield2.jpg

Smith & Wesson Model 3 Schofield http://shopping.smith-wesson.com/auctions/

Leggo, er, I mean Oleg, I'm sure you know about S&W's new production Schofield. Would be nice if they could crank'em out for the price of a 629, say $525 or so. My guess is they'll be $2000 plus.

The first real handgun I ever held was an old 5" nickel top-break H&R .22 LR. It had belonged to my Great Grandfather Lenz. He probably bought before W.W.I for $5 from Sears & Roebucks. My Mom used it to kill a rattlesnake in our backyard in 1960 (before I was even born). Before that her Grandma used it to cull rabbits from her garden (before she moved to town), I guess granny was quite the crack shot. I haven't shot it since the early 80s, but in highschool I use to hunt with it all the time.

Someday I plan to have it professionally restored - deplate the nickel and have it replated, find some grips that aren't cracked, have the lock work gone over, maybe have a new cylinder fitted. At a gunshow it wouldn't bring twenty bucks but the sentimental value is worth twenty times that to me. -- Kernel
 
Other than.....? That says it all.

Could a strong break top revolver be made? Maybe, but the system has inherent problems. When a conventional side swing revolver fires, the cartridge pushes back against the recoil shield and the barrel is pulled forward by the bullet movement. The resulting strain tries to literally pull the gun apart. With a top break, the forces are the same, but the strain is taken by a joint, not by a solid top strap. Eventually, the locking surfaces will compress and the gun will loosen up. And, of course, the wear resulting from opening and closing the gun will also cause looseness eventually.

With low power cartridges, the wear and looseness will be delayed, but they cannot be prevented.

Before someone mentions percussion revolvers without top straps, in a percussion revolver, the recoil force pushes back the whole cylinder into the frame lower down so the frame is better able to stand the recoil, and it is the barrel wedge that takes the beating.

When black powder gave way to smokeless, and higher power was available and wanted, most revolver makers concluded that the top break design just wouldn't hack it. The British clung to top break revolvers for military use, but the cartridges were low power and military revolvers were not fired much.

Jim
 
If you like the Top Break design it can be had in .455 webbly and some have been converted to .45acp. Mine is a .38/200 (.38S&W) which with hand loads works quite well. As for power my Webbly is at least as good as any .380 and better than .32

Personal Load is 3.2g Unique 158g HBWC. No gauranty this will work in you gun.
The HBWC is needed because the Brits made it for a .360 bullet not .356 / .358 and the base fills the diff quite well

[This message has been edited by Nestor Rivera (edited February 17, 2000).]
 
Jimmy,

It is true that H&R is no longer producing the 999, or any handgun for that matter, in 2000. I was looking for a catalog, and called the company and was explaining to the customer service rep that I was interested in a 999. She informed me that H&R was not making any handguns in 2000 citing liability concerns, and was unsure if production would resume in the future. Luckily, the customer service rep told me they had a distributor that had some 999's left over. She would not give me the name of the distributor since I'm not an ffl holder, but I had the gun shop I do business with call, and I got one for $266.00 total. I just got it 2 days ago and am slated to go to the range tommorrow. Seems like a nice piece. Very Tight, surprisingly good fit and finish..but the double action trigger pull is awful. I plan to use it mostly single action for plinking, but the trigger is truly so heavy it might as well be single action only. I wonder if it will break in over time? Anyway..if you call H&R (or have your dealer call) perhaps you could still get one. Their number is (508) 632-9393. All in all, the gun seems like it will be a good plinker, and seems a decent value in a utilitarian type "working gun" for the price.
 
Good topic Oleg. I had a Webley in .45 and .38. Strong as a horse and FAST. For a combat gun a top break is a damned good design and allows super fast reloading as the empty casings fly out of the gun as it opens.
In most common handgun calibers like .38 special, .44 special, .45 auto etc. they would be great.
In the late 70's or early 80's a firm tried to come out with a top break for self-defensive use. I can't recall the name.
Surprised nobody mentioned it.
Everybody that tried one fell in love with it but the firm folded. A shame.
I had a Webley in .38 S&W and reloaded it to +P .38 special specs with NO problems. It was an RAF marked gun. I got the lead slugs
up close to 950 fps with 158 grain lead slugs. I worked on Beesafe ammo with the inventor and he has bullets for reloaders to use in a .38 S&W which gets it off of its knees and he sells enough to keep making it.
I told him how many of these guns are floating around and there was a market for such ammunition.
If I see another Webley in .38 S&W I'll buy it.
 
I have what I believe to be an Enfield Chambered for 38 S&W. Does anyone know the difference between an Enfield and a Webley? Anyway, I've shot it quite a bit and have gotten good service out of it. The available loads commercially aren't anything wonderful, I believe there are 2 available, And they give a muzzle velocity around 650 fps. At $17.00 a box, this isn't a gun to simply plink with. I see these things ar gun shows for $100.00 in decent shape. It makes for a good collector's item.
 
As per Jim's request, here are my impressions of my new H&R 999. I was on the range on Friday (2/18) and fired about 100 rounds through it. Let me say first that after my first posting, I removed the cylinder and cleaned the gun. The factory apparently used some type of grease for lubrication which had hardened sufficiently to make it like glue. I totally degreased, cleaned, and relubed the gun, and now the action, although still quite heavy, is somewhat smoother. The gun seems accurate. Unfortunately I forgot my allen wrench when I went to the range, so I couldn't adjust the rear sight...but the gun exibited excellent "practical accuracy". I've never been much of a bullseye shooter, and so feel incompetant to evaluate it's accuracy as a pure target gun, however it seems to be a good tin can killer, or .22 silhouette weapon at 15 yards. The gun functioned flawlessly, with no failures to detonate. While it was managable in double action firing, as previously stated, it is much more comfortable to fire single action. I am very pleased with the balance and ease of reloading. All in all, I think this gun is a good value for the price, and I like the idea of owning a weapon which is an American classic. On the other hand, the action mechanism is primitive by S&W standards, and I doubt even a competent gunsmith could give it a truly crisp, smooth trigger. As I've always believed, in their day H&R excelled in manufacturing low price yet high quality, utilitarian "working guns" and this piece is no exception. I hope this was helpful. If you have any other questions, feel free to email me.
 
The real advantage of the top break design is that the cylinder is always held at the same zero axis. The swing open revolver types wear far worse in this respect with hor ammo than a top break design. To illustrate what I am talking about take any traditional swing out revolver new and (cylinder empty of course), cock the hammer and wiggle the cylinder from side to side. Notice the amount of slop.. shoot alot of ammo(less for hot ammo) and then perform the same test. The slop has increased noticably hasn't it!

This slop translates into the bullet hitting too far to the side of the forcing cone and affecting accuracy and safety. This can get so bad that these pistols will spit lead out the side of the pistol. Improper timing can cause this as well.

The break open design resists this type of wear for a much longer period of time although timing of the cylinder is still an issue with either type.

cool topic! peace
 
Side gate loading revolvers also resist that sort of wear...but they are no easy to check for loaded shells. IMO, a break-top .22 would make a dandy training gun (I ought to pick up an old H&R...which models to avoid, anyone?)
 
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