OT: liberal soccer - I just don't believe it

C

CMOS

New member
I'm shocked.

While leaving the gym today I ran into a friend of mine who I have known for over 10 years. He has a great family, 3 kids and a very good woman. He told me his daughter had a soccer game tonight so I asked how well she liked it and how good she was.

His response shocked me - "Well, it's "fair play" soccer, they don't keep score so nobody wins or loses." [Next my jaw drops...] "You know, it for little kids."

What?

Oh, I get it now. The intent is to shield the children from any slight against their fragile self-esteem and feelings - to create the perfect world.

Don't flame me yet. I can see this type of strategy for T-ball for a 4 or 5 year old at best.

His daughter is 9 years old!

[RANT] What happended to learning how to win with grace, to having respect for your opponent because without them, there would be no victor?

What happened to learning how to lose with dignity, with learning to pick yourself up and try again, because life for damn sure won't hand you a "win" every time. In fact, as you all know, it tends to be rarely.

I played soccer when I was 5 years old. I remember it like it was yesterday. It was months before our team even won a game but we were taught to respect our teamates and opponents regardless of a win or loss. The coaches I had were real men and exceptional role-models. I learned so much from them, and I don't mean how to kick a ball.

How are these kids today going to learn these valuable lessons when the adults, who have yet to learn themselves, won't give them the opportunity to learn? These types of lessons can't be taught by reading a book, they have to be lived and experienced.

No wonder these people grow up entering the adult world and don't have the social skills to handle diversity and obstacles. No wonder their self-esteem is so fragile.
[/RANT]

Please, tell me if I'm nuts here. Am I alone in this opinion? I am truly shocked.

CMOS :(
 
CMOS,
You may be nuts, but on this topic you're right. I occasionaly ref soccer games for the local youth league, and this is a personal affront. It is about winning and losing, and learning to deal with both.
Eric

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Formerly Puddle Pirate.
Teach a kid to shoot.
It annoys the antis.
 
OMG, that is sick. :eek:

OK, I'll admit I Su*k with a capital S at sports and I always hated competetive sports, but you are absolutely right.

This kind of thing is instituted by the same people who support "zero-tollerance-and-I-mean-zero-as-in-don't-even-defend-or-stand-up-for-yourself" policies. It breeds weakness.

Whatever happened to "America, land of the free, home of the brave?"

What is going to be, "...land of the trampled, home of the pathetic?"

Maybe that's kind of harsh, but this kind of stuff scares me.
 
Some of the most valuable lessons in life we learn as children. Winning at anything (academically or athletically) teaches rewards for hard work and initiative. Losing hurts, but it teaches us to try harder, recognize our weaknesses and to seek alternatives. Winning teaches us to be dignified, to have compassion, to be gracious, to be humble and to manage pride. Losing teaches us that we always can't be a winner.

Raising children to be non-competetive deprives them of essential skills they will need as well-balanced adults, and this sets them up for failure.
 
You want soccer ? I'll give you soccer . I grew up playing in the German American league . To us it was not really life or death . It was much more important than that . A tie was nothing more than a reprieve until next week . It was personal , family , neighborhood and ethnic pride all in one . Out of that mud and blood came many positive things . When you won you only bought time . They would come back . When you lost you BETTER figure out why and change it .
The best thing ? Basic training was a waste of my time and Jump School was a walk in the park . One thing that seems funny now . The older I get , the better I was . Just ask me .

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TOM SASS AMERICAN LEGION NRA
 
Para:
Boy that sounds like a pretty vicious league you were in. I recall in high school, our team policy was to ruthlessly foul opponents who were better than us-which was most of them. I like to think that I was the mastermind of it. I started the cheap shots in practice on our best players, and it spread from there. We were determined to win, no matter how ugly we were, because to us, there was no substitute for victory.

So, CMOS, you are right. Children are being brought up to NOT be able to handle adversity and problems. :(

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It is the people who are prisoners of their own ignorance about firearms that pose the greatest threat to our 2nd Amendment Rights.
 
And people wonder why kids today are killing each other because they were made "fun of" in school. When the hard reality of life slaps them upside the head they don't know how to deal with it. Competition, winning and losing gracefully are life lessons that need to be learned. These kids are being taught to be nothing more than victims.
 
I'll bet some of the parents keep score!
Next time my oldest gets on the back of a bull,he can tell the bull it's a "fair play" ride. ;)
 
I remember 7-8 years ago when my son was in a league that "didn't keep score". Let me tell you, the kids knew the score, whether the refs and coaches were keeping it or not! And these were K or 1st graders, IIRC.

This modern self-esteem-even-if-there's-no-reason-for-it b*11$h!t is one of the biggest idiocies of modern life in these United States. Self esteem comes from competancy and achievement, not from pop psychology feel-good-ism.
 
Something I just thought of. Besides learning how to win and lose, some competitive, contact sports such as soccer also teach anger management.

You're pissed off 'cause they just scored and another player is taunting you. You want to deck him, but if you keep your cool and your head, you can prevail.

-z (played competitive soccer for 11 years)
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Matt19:
Para:
Boy that sounds like a pretty vicious league you were in. I recall in high school, our team policy was to ruthlessly foul opponents who were better than us-which was most of them. I like to think that I was the mastermind of it. I started the cheap shots in practice on our best players, and it spread from there. We were determined to win, no matter how ugly we were, because to us, there was no substitute for victory.
[/quote]
The trick to devious tactics was to go slow or you were down a player . A yellow was not too bad since you were still in . Strangely enough the color of the card was in relation of the result rather than the act . If the other weenie could writhe and cry enough the red card was a possibility . It was meant to intimidate rather than actually hurt anyone . That was only in football and Coach Paterno was the teacher .
The European style of soccer is a power game and domination is the first step . You can trip but you MUST get the ball . Then it's a legal take away . If you foul an opponent do it with the Ref's back to you but do it blatantly . When the person retaliates the ref will see them only . Now it's your turn to act . It was mostly good natured fun . Kind of like wrestling used to be .
Those that say the kids are keeping score are correct . Like back in New York in the winter . Good natured playing in the snow had a meter . Whoever was the wettest had been shoved into the snow the most AND they knew it . If keeping score is not important ask the parents if they would work for just enough money to live . Because ,you see , money is the ultimate way of keeping score in the game of life .



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TOM SASS AMERICAN LEGION NRA
 
I have been attending soccer games for the first time ever this year. One of my former students made his high school varsity team, and he is a refugee from a small, currently warring African nation and has no family here. So, whenever I can, I go root for him. And let me tell you -- the BEST THING that can happen to this kid is to get his a$$ kicked on the field occasionally. In his home country, he was the grandson of a bigwig and nobody said boo to him. He thought America would be the same way. He really, really needed to learn how to lose, and lose with some grace and humility.

I run into the same kinds of problems as a teacher. Last semester they wanted me to give out so many dang "feel good awards" at the end of the quarter -- "how about making up some certificates for the kids who made D's and above? You can call it the Contender Award" -- that the kids who actually *earned* awards would have been lost in the shuffle. I refused.

Yes, it sucks to lose, but that's what makes success so sweet. Wasn't it Heinlein who said something like "nothing given freely has value; only that which has been earned"? Help me out, someone.

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*quack*

[This message has been edited by duck hunt (edited May 06, 2000).]
 
It's called SPORTSMANSHIP.

If you lose, you contratulate the winner; if you win, you tell the loser that you enjoyed the competition. You deal with it! (Thanks, Dad).

One other note. I was in the FFA when I learned this adage:
"If you can't come in first place, try to make the winner break the record." -unknown to me, but I thought it might fit in here.
 
This is communism. No one wins, no one tries, we all win together and work as a team. No one loses, we all are equal, and individual talents or effort will not get you ahead, but only benefit the whole because each is awarded equally by the superiors no matter the amount of effort put in.

My wife is in education and one game these freaks came up with is to have all the kids push a huge ball around the field as a team. There was no opposing team, no goals, no purpose, just work together to push the ball.
"Are we having fun yet?"

Self esteem hype is a bunch of crap. First of all, most kids today have way too much self esteem. If you look at their pants funny then they shoot you for disrespecting them. You can't give them a word of advice, because they know it all (just ask their teachers, er, I mean "facilitators", since the teachers will tell you that they don't teach anything, the kids just find their way as the facilitator guides them). And forget trying to discipline these kids, as they are far to superior for you to discipline them to help them grow. They have way too much self esteem, rather than too little.
And, who are the people we know with the most real self esteem? Are they the people that have had things handed to them their whole lives? Are those the people that have true character and true self esteem? No: people that have true self esteem have had their share of losses and know what it means to win. Examples include people that have gone through boot camp and have had the crap beat out of them, or people that have started out poor and earned they way to success etc. In other words, people that have been put through hell, challenged beyond measure, and came out vistorous. Those are people with true character and true self esteem.
What is this joke that the pseudopsychobabblists are putting on us now? Give out trophies to every kid on the field, and that is supposed to make them feel good? Yeah, I am sure they really value those trophies.

[This message has been edited by Red Bull (edited May 06, 2000).]
 
Does this come as a surprise?
Look at the NBA. They have promoted mediocrity for years with their playoff system. It was just a matter of time before it was applied to school kids in one form or another.
 
Well it's morning now, I've slept on this subject and I'm still deeply concerned.

This issue is not just a problem for "the" child, it's a society problem and it's getting bigger.

My wife commented to me last night that nowadays you will most likely offend someone if you tell them something like, "you know, I really liked you hair the other way you had it" - and she's right. Seems you can't even say anything that can have any negative content to it.

What in the world will this place be like in one or two more generations?

I think all of us here will be in jail for offending too many peole...

CMOS :(
 
there is no reason for very young children, especially sub 5yr olds, to keep score. i had a four year old nephew playing t-ball. it wasn't necessary. a more vomit inducing thing is the gung ho *sshole, live through their kid parents in the older, keep score (as it should be) leagues.
 
This 'fair play' crap is namby-pamby-wishy-washy-spineless-gutless-wimpery at it's finest. Youse guys and gals have pretty much said everything I could say about learning to win and lose, hard work, and character building, but this 'fair play' stuf is simply delusional. LIFE AIN't FAIR, and the sooner kids learn how to deal with it ( and teh right ways and the wrong ways to deal with it), the better off they'll be as members of society. I simply cannot fathom ow a sentient being can think that this is good 'for the kids', all it does is encourage litigous crybabies.
M2
 
I have a saying from one of my more astute students posted in the classroom. He was responding to a classmate that responded "that sucks!" to one of my homework assignments.

"A lot of things suck -- but then again, that's life."



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*quack*
 
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