Original Bullet Wt. for Luger

Taper on "modern" rounds is pretty faint.
9mm P tapers 0.010" over 0.500" of case wall, .40 S&W tapers 0.0009" over 0.598" of case wall.

There was a gunzine article wherein a PhD devised the 9mm Automatic, same length as 9mm P but a straight case.
http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammo/9mm-automatic-better-9mm-cartridge/

The first cut at a 9mm for the Luger pistol was a nearly straight case with a faint bottleneck. Known as the 9mm Borchardt or Borchardt/Luger. Darn thing even had a heel bullet. Scholarly discussion and picture at:
https://forum.cartridgecollectors.org/t/9mm-borchardt-first-9mm-luger-cartridge/8412
 
I'll go through the article on the Borchardt, the original article by Sturgess.

Millers article I've read a couple of times. His reasoning is flawed and he does not make a credible case for his argument. It's difficult to believe anyone took the article seriously.

tipoc
 
So I was wrong to say they could not do it.
Click to expand...

Oh, I definitely didn't make the comment to say anybody was wrong. I just don't have the knowledge on the subject to make that kind of assessment.
My point was that we just may never know the details.
Militaries are naturally secretive. It wouldn't be such a stretch to think the bullets the DWM sent to the U.S. for testing were not the same bullets the German Navy and Army would later use for themselves, either because they made them "lighter" on purpose, or because, upon adopting the weapon, the Germans decided to use a "hotter" one.

Wikipedia cites the muzzle velocity for the 4" barrel at 1148 to 1312 fps, though I suspect that may be for the "mit eisenkern" bullets. But, on the other hand, there have been 9mm Lugers with barrels up to 200mm (7.9"), so muzzle velocities may have been even higher than the ones Jim Watson posted above.

Millers article I've read a couple of times. His reasoning is flawed and he does not make a credible case for his argument.
Click to expand...

I couldn't agree more. In fact, reading that article I have to think it was written only for the sake of printing something, because the whole logic behind it is ridiculous.

True, tapered bullets tend to nosedive. So do straight bullets.
Nosediving is the result of the differential friction of the bullet against the next bullet in the magazine (or the magazine follower), and the lower friction of the bullet against the magazine lips, compounded by the fact that the breech face pushes the bullet off the upper lip, at an angle. Sure, tapered bullets may nosedive a fraction of a degree further than straight ones, but I doubt that'd be an issue, as long as the design of the weapon accounts for it. And I guess billions of rounds fired successfully around the world kinda prove it...
 
From Boogie;

My point was that we just may never know the details.
Militaries are naturally secretive. It wouldn't be such a stretch to think the bullets the DWM sent to the U.S. for testing were not the same bullets the German Navy and Army would later use for themselves, either because they made them "lighter" on purpose, or because, upon adopting the weapon, the Germans decided to use a "hotter" one.
Click to expand...

Well I tend to think we can know the details. We can and in some cases do know them already. They have basically all been published and are over 115 years old in some cases. If not all of us here know all aspects of it that's mostly because we haven't dedicated ourselves to looking up the details. But they are there. Many are printed in any number of books, some have been quoted from in this thread.

Look at it this way Luger and DWM were very interested in selling their guns and the ammo for them. In a number of cases DWM provided as well as sold both the guns and ammo to a number of armies for testing. In some cases this was before Germany had adopted the guns or ammo for use by their Navy or Army. That was the case with the U.S., Sweden and a number of other countries. It's also true that many countries have been building guns in 9mm and 9mm ammo for them and yet, till recently, no 124 gr. pills at 1200 fps from a 4" barrel.

The U.S. Army bought several thousand Lugers for testing and evaluation, before they were adopted by Germany and before the first World War. Many in 9mm. DWM had every reason to provide them good ammo and good guns. By all accounts they did so. The record of that testing is available in a number of books. The same is true of other nations.

So even in this thread we can point to a few verified accounts of the weight and velocity of the ammo from multiple sources. What we may be unclear on the a specific velocity from a specific barrel length.

Certain they did not get 1200 fps with a 124 gr. bullet from a 4" barrel in 1902 or 1917 in a way that could have been done with regularity. If they could have they would have. NATO spec today from about the same is about 1140 fps. Thing is we have no specific references of the 1200 fps from a 4" but we do have it from the longer barrels. We don't have any proof that they did get that from 4" barrels. We do have reference to it being shot from longer barrels.

If it was something that they could do regularly and safely they certainly would have advertised it. Would've sold like hotcakes.

In over a century of 9mm ammo only fairly recently have we seen 124 gr. pills that fast, and faster and 9mm+P+ is advertised and sold. Today we have better powders and better heat treating for the guns and the barrels.

tipoc
 
Last edited:
@Tipoc:Thank you for the data.:)

Now my question is: many people tend to bunch up all Lugers under the P-08 name, including the 150mm barrelled one, which is actually (AFAIK) a P-04. Is it possible to get 1200 fps off the 150mm (5.9 in) barrel, with a 124 gr bullet?
 
It is NOW.
Gold Dot 124 Short Barrel will do 1200 fps in a 4" barrel.
Are standard pressures higher now than they used to be?
I don't know.
Maybe it is just that powders are more progressive now.
 
Our early 9mm rounds were a bit anemic. And we didn't make many 9mm pistols. Handloaders needed to load a bit hotter for the European guns. Different bullet materials were also used such as Zinc. there also were hollow point bullets experimented with.
 
Yes it is. You can get that today from a 4 or 5" barrel. There are many rounds today that can do that.

If you go here you can see some of them.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/3...124-grain-xtp-jacketed-hollow-point-box-of-25

They may have done it from the 5.9" barrel you mention back then.

To quote myself from earlier;

In my old copy of Fred Datig's book on the Luger he gives a velocity of 1240 fps with a 124 gr. bullet.
Click to expand...

But most likely that was from a 7" barrel. Or possibly from the Luger Carbine.

It's possible certainly.

You'll have to do some studying and find what velocities and what bullet weights in what barrel lengths were being offered by ammo makers and gun makers back then, meaning in 1902-08 or so. That a handloader might could do it means little. It'sa what the gunmakers and ammo makers did and what the militaries wanted that is what you're looking for. The information is available.

tipoc
 
Now my question is: many people tend to bunch up all Lugers under the P-08 name, including the 150mm barrelled one, which is actually (AFAIK) a P-04.
Click to expand...

According to The Standard Catalog of Luger, the German Navy pistols of 04 and 06 were sometimes referred to as P.04s. After the Army adopted the Luger in 1908, references to the P.04 go away, and all military Lugers are called P.08s as a general use name.

Non military Lugers are the Pistole Parabellum, properly, though the US use of Luger is also proper in a way. While not the official maker's name for the pistol the DWM marketer for the US called them "Lugers" believing the simpler name (and less foreign sounding) would appeal more to US customers.

So, "Luger" became the recognized name for the pistol and its ammo in the US.

In casual conversation, I call them Lugers, or P.08s because its easier to type. :p

I have a couple of Lugers made by Stoeger, which are blowback .22LR, and resemble but are not copies of the P.08 design. But they are, technically "Lugers", because Stoeger owned (maybe still owns?) the rights to the name "Luger" in the US. I also have a Stoeger American Eagle Luger, made in Texas, a stainless steel copy of the P.08 design, in 9mm Luger. Absolutely and legally a "Luger".
 
Just occurred to me on the case taper front...
Georg or DWM must have had a hangup on even numbers when they opened the .30 Luger case up to 9mm, leaving the 9mm P with the most taper of any "straight" case. (9mm Bergman Bayard/Largo and 9mm Mauser Export have about the same AMOUNT of taper, but on longer cases, therefore less angle.)
If they had gone up to 9.2mm like the Soviets did with the Makarov round, they would have ended with just a faint taper like we now see with .40 and .45.
Would that have helped feeding and function?
 
Would that have helped feeding and function?
Click to expand...

I think its hard to say. Remember #1, the point in time & case design we are looking at. They simply didn't know then, what we know, now.

Early on, Browning didn't consider headspacing on the case mouth to be reliable enough, so he put that small, "semi-rim" on his designs. Apparently by the time he got around to designing the .45ACP, he had enough experience to recognize that the semi rim wasn't needed.

I'd have to do some searching, but I think that Luger went to 9mm, and not a different size was because 9mm was what the German military wanted. It took the German Army a few more years to make up their mind than it took their navy, but they did buy in, in 1908, and the rest is history.

and, as a second point, within certain conditions, a tapered case AIDS in feeding and function. Again, look at the era, and what was "known". They knew a tapered case was a benefit to extraction in rifles under difficult conditions, (ever wonder why nearly all the classic African "stopper" rounds are rather tapered??) In a pistol, what could it hurt??? ;)
 
I think the article by Miller from Shooting Times can unfortunately lead to some overthinking of the taper on the 9mm.

From the time of it's beginnings up till now the 9mm has no issues with feeding. It is the oldest and most successful semi-auto round available. If anything a slight taper helps it, as it does with some other rounds.

Mr. Miller, as he explains in the article, was feeding 9mm rounds from a 38 Super magazine in a 1911. Unsurprisingly and predictably he had issues with nosediving. Solely and alone on the basis of this he declared that the 9mm had issues feeding due to the taper. A "fatal flaw". The reality is that neither in single stack magazines nor double stack mags does it have any trouble feeding that can be traced to the round.

So...

If they had gone up to 9.2mm like the Soviets did with the Makarov round, they would have ended with just a faint taper like we now see with .40 and .45.
Would that have helped feeding and function?
Click to expand...

No, not so much. Mostly because it doesn't have an issue with feeding and function in the first place. So trying to improve on what is pretty much a model of efficiency, just because one fella can't get it to be reliable from a 38 Super magazine in a 1911, seems the wrong way to go.

tipoc
 
It is the oldest and most successful semi-auto round available.
Click to expand...

There are two pieces of that sentence, they go together. If there is another round developed for semi autos that is older and as widespread, or even close, in use let me know please. The 22 l.r. don't figure in this picture. There are clearly older rounds, like the 30 Mauser and others, but they fell by the wayside as service rounds.

Browning's 38 acp/38 Super predates the 9mm by a few years but is a niche round. A very good niche round and one I personally prefer over the 9mm for a number of reasons. But it is not as widely in use as the 9mm.

The point is that the 9mm has no inherent feeding problems due to it's design, quite the opposite in truth.

tipoc
 
Look at Bergman ammo if you want to see a lot of case taper. Early versions had no extractor groove, those little suckers were blowing out of there.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top