Opinions
- Thread starter Dave Sample
- Start date
Dave Sample
Moderator
First: I want to thank all of you for the input on this thread. I hate to think we are bickering about how many Angels we can put on the head of a pin, but if that is the way some of you percieve it, then I am truly sorry.
1911's generally do better ,accuracy wise, from a shooter, not a rest. A rest is valuble for repeatability as as one person mentioned, the rest cares not about the trigger pull. It cares notrhing about the sight picture, either. The shooter does, however. The rest usually throws the first shot away, also. These kind of tests do not interest me because they are of no use in the practical world of building C.O.P. type 1911's.
If you have a 1911 that can repeat itself on each and every shot, go into lock up at the exact same place everytime you fire it, then the "Pie" is out the window. As a matter of fact, both "Pies". This 1911 can have a sloppy slide to frame fit, a lousy bushing fit, everything about it can be stock, and it wil be a shooter for a certain someone. A true gunman becomes "One" with his tools and they become a team. They compliment each other and together, they can do the Job.
Here is another thought regarding the first shot thing.
The barrel is COLD. Bullseye shooters know this. Or do they?
Keep those cards and letters coming folks, this could get to be interesting!
1911's generally do better ,accuracy wise, from a shooter, not a rest. A rest is valuble for repeatability as as one person mentioned, the rest cares not about the trigger pull. It cares notrhing about the sight picture, either. The shooter does, however. The rest usually throws the first shot away, also. These kind of tests do not interest me because they are of no use in the practical world of building C.O.P. type 1911's.
If you have a 1911 that can repeat itself on each and every shot, go into lock up at the exact same place everytime you fire it, then the "Pie" is out the window. As a matter of fact, both "Pies". This 1911 can have a sloppy slide to frame fit, a lousy bushing fit, everything about it can be stock, and it wil be a shooter for a certain someone. A true gunman becomes "One" with his tools and they become a team. They compliment each other and together, they can do the Job.
Here is another thought regarding the first shot thing.
The barrel is COLD. Bullseye shooters know this. Or do they?
Keep those cards and letters coming folks, this could get to be interesting!
Dave,
Just for clarity, why would a pistol do something from the rest (like throwing the first shot) that it does not do for a person?
Are you saying that the rest adds some negative element, or that there is some sort of cancelation going on when the random human element is added?
Or is it just that the small things that stand out when rest shooting become unimportant when the whole picture is looked at?
Just for clarity, why would a pistol do something from the rest (like throwing the first shot) that it does not do for a person?
Are you saying that the rest adds some negative element, or that there is some sort of cancelation going on when the random human element is added?
Or is it just that the small things that stand out when rest shooting become unimportant when the whole picture is looked at?
Dave Sample
Moderator
Two possible reasons, Handy.
1.The way they chamber the first round.
2. A cold barrel.
I have always thought that heat has something to do with the "No Flyer Type" of test firing that Leo does for me. I am sure he warms up the 1911 before he shoots the groups. He also drops the slide from the slide stop everytime he loads it up. It is an interesting thought , but I have no Iron Clad Proof. Just an obsevation from shooting a lot of Red Ryder B-B's down range for 50 years. Have you ever heard of these super match shooters comment about barrel heat? The 1000 yard guys? I am curious why it is never mentioned anywhere. Another factor to ponder, perhaps?
1.The way they chamber the first round.
2. A cold barrel.
I have always thought that heat has something to do with the "No Flyer Type" of test firing that Leo does for me. I am sure he warms up the 1911 before he shoots the groups. He also drops the slide from the slide stop everytime he loads it up. It is an interesting thought , but I have no Iron Clad Proof. Just an obsevation from shooting a lot of Red Ryder B-B's down range for 50 years. Have you ever heard of these super match shooters comment about barrel heat? The 1000 yard guys? I am curious why it is never mentioned anywhere. Another factor to ponder, perhaps?
"If you have a 1911 that can repeat itself on each and every shot, go into lock up at the exact same place everytime you fire it, then the "Pie" is out the window."
Under Figure 147 in Kuhnhausen Vol I, are the following words:
"Figure 147- Shows the various elements that produce mechanical and shooter assistive accuracy in the basic M1911 design. Althogh this is an over simplification, mechanical accurac is nothing more than precicion fitting and reeduction of tolerances until consistent and repeatable function has been reached. Or, in other words, the pistol is tuned, mechanically, to do the same exact thing again and again."
The pie is an attempt to define how to get to this state of perfection.
Things with poor fit and tolerance are very unlikely to repeat on every shot.
Most of the techniques in Kuhnhausen are for target use. They can be used to imrove the performance of a pistol for other purposes
Under Figure 147 in Kuhnhausen Vol I, are the following words:
"Figure 147- Shows the various elements that produce mechanical and shooter assistive accuracy in the basic M1911 design. Althogh this is an over simplification, mechanical accurac is nothing more than precicion fitting and reeduction of tolerances until consistent and repeatable function has been reached. Or, in other words, the pistol is tuned, mechanically, to do the same exact thing again and again."
The pie is an attempt to define how to get to this state of perfection.
Things with poor fit and tolerance are very unlikely to repeat on every shot.
Most of the techniques in Kuhnhausen are for target use. They can be used to imrove the performance of a pistol for other purposes
Dave Sample
Moderator
I am really going to have to read that book someday. I have had it around here since they came out, but have never really explored it. I guess Jerry is the Expert of Experts now. I will slink back in the corner and shut up! I don't write books.
.Dave,
I don't see why shooting from a bench would cause the barrel to be cold. Take a look at what I was asking.
This thread has been about Kuhnhausen because YOU brought up the pie chart he published. Acting wounded that the guy exists is just embarrasing for you.
I don't see why shooting from a bench would cause the barrel to be cold. Take a look at what I was asking.
The only thing I wish you would shut up about is this kind of guilt routine. Please stop the martyr act - it's unbecoming.
This thread has been about Kuhnhausen because YOU brought up the pie chart he published. Acting wounded that the guy exists is just embarrasing for you.
Dave Sample
Moderator
Me? Guilt Routine? Wow. Sorry. Let me put it another way then,. I think that I should build guns and Jerry should write books. I build better guns than he writes books because I am not worried about lawyers. I guess I am saying that I think the books are useful to those who don't know anything about guns. I think the "Pies" are a WAG. (Wild Ass Guess) and my guess is as good as anyone elses, and maybe better. Maybe we should write a book, Handy! My reference to the porch was the implication that maybe I shouldn't be running with the big dawgs here. I am just one man...................and an old one at that. Just an old kitchen table smith.....................BOOO HOOOO. I will never learn how to get along with folks on forums. Just know that I do try very hard to be a real nice guy.............................Well, do we have some more opinions? That is what I asked for. Just opinions. I don't want to confuse anyone with the facts, Mam. (DiFi in a Senate Hearing).
Jammer Six
New member
Dave, I'm confused. Just for the record, are you saying that you don't think Kuhnhausen knows how to build 1911s?
If that's what it means, are you attacking someone who isn't here to defend himself?
If that's not what it means, what does it mean?
Dean Taylor
Inactive
Where is the evidence? I agree JK has written percentages and has pie charts in his book I agree that those are his opinions - however where is the evidence? He gives no evidence for his opinions in volume I or II that I am aware of.
I have never seen, handled or shot a 1911 JK has built.
Does anyone know of any evidence for the opinions on the subject.
Dean
deanrtaylor@att.net
410-952-7848
I have never seen, handled or shot a 1911 JK has built.
Does anyone know of any evidence for the opinions on the subject.
Dean
deanrtaylor@att.net
410-952-7848
Dean,
Show me an example of "evidence" of any gun expert.
Reading the section, I'm sure Kuhnhausen was just trying to make a point about mechanical vs. human and the relative effectiveness of various jobs. It doesn't really matter how he came about them because they aren't useful for anything other then demonstrating that there is no simple fix.
Treating this tiny section of the book like an article in "Nature" is inappropriate.
There is nothing ground breaking about those little charts. You could do tests until you're blue in the face and arrive at 23% for something instead of K's 20%. And he wouldn't disagree with you.
THE CHARTS ARE ROUGH APPROXIMATIONS.
Show me an example of "evidence" of any gun expert.
Reading the section, I'm sure Kuhnhausen was just trying to make a point about mechanical vs. human and the relative effectiveness of various jobs. It doesn't really matter how he came about them because they aren't useful for anything other then demonstrating that there is no simple fix.
Treating this tiny section of the book like an article in "Nature" is inappropriate.
There is nothing ground breaking about those little charts. You could do tests until you're blue in the face and arrive at 23% for something instead of K's 20%. And he wouldn't disagree with you.
THE CHARTS ARE ROUGH APPROXIMATIONS.
Jammer Six
New member
Taylor, there is no evidence, and I believe that is one of Sample's points.
The pie charts are merely opinions, nothing more.
Sample has different opinions. Burns has different opinions.
Kuhnhausen points out one of the many reasons there can be no scientific evidence to back up any of these opinions. Sample has pointed out other reasons.
We're discussing opinions, and the basis for those opinions.
There is no evidence involved.
If you find some, I'd invite you to post it here- I'm sure we'd all like to see it.
However, I'd point out that for every anecdote or piece of subjective "evidence" you may find, there is an equally valid piece of "evidence" to counter it.
Which brings us back to this discussion- a discussion of opinions.
Do you have an opinion to offer?
The pie charts are merely opinions, nothing more.
Sample has different opinions. Burns has different opinions.
Kuhnhausen points out one of the many reasons there can be no scientific evidence to back up any of these opinions. Sample has pointed out other reasons.
We're discussing opinions, and the basis for those opinions.
There is no evidence involved.
If you find some, I'd invite you to post it here- I'm sure we'd all like to see it.
However, I'd point out that for every anecdote or piece of subjective "evidence" you may find, there is an equally valid piece of "evidence" to counter it.
Which brings us back to this discussion- a discussion of opinions.
Do you have an opinion to offer?
Harry Bonar
New member
opinions
Dear Shooters.
I don't agree with a number of Mr. Kuhnhausens' opinions; but I'm sure he has a fine manual (I've read it).
Dave states it well (not just bacause I like Daves' cut), but his opinion. You cannot give percentages on a 1911! There are so many things on a 1911 that affect functioning and accuracy.
For instance; I just "did" a 1911, - a Rock Island Armory!!
Put a new Kart in, matted and bordered, front grasping grooves, Ed Brown grip safety, short Videki trigger, carry bevel package, reliability package, chamber job, fit for headspace, and bead blasted, crowned the bbl (11 degree).
I took it out and at 10 yards with me looking through my tri-focals, off-hand, shot a group that just expanded the hole size in the old computer tower I was mad at!
Will EVERY 1911 do that after careful work is done? NO!
They are like women, sometimes (always?) make their own rules. Yes, as Dave says, if you understand the 1911 and good gunsmith practise you will end up with a good working and shooting gun, (generally).
Now, my opinion:
The link has but one function - to pull the bbl. down out of battery as the round is fired and it has a very limited job of (HELPING) the bbl back up into battery. The bbl. if properly fit will rest, without the link in, in the upper lugs fully; a range rod will tell you if it goes into the firing-pin hole when "linked up," and the lower lug feet will rest firmly on the slide stop pin! I realize it's more involved than this but when I have the hood fit right and the bbl. is up in the slide lugs and the range rod indicates it's in the firing pin hole, then I do no work on bbl lugs!
Then I cut the lower lugs and if you've done it right, for test purposes you don't even need a link in! Then the link you choose will pull the bbl down and help it up without any drag.
Talk about opinions? The bushing on my guns needs a wrench to remove and I ream interior dia. and then lap the bbl. in - rear of muzzle fit in bushing should be relieved about .005 -.008 to prevent rubbing on rear of bushing, this is important - BUT; You can find a WW11 old beat up colt that will shoot the pants off of our "custom" jobs! Crazy.
Harry B.
Dear Shooters.
I don't agree with a number of Mr. Kuhnhausens' opinions; but I'm sure he has a fine manual (I've read it).
Dave states it well (not just bacause I like Daves' cut), but his opinion. You cannot give percentages on a 1911! There are so many things on a 1911 that affect functioning and accuracy.
For instance; I just "did" a 1911, - a Rock Island Armory!!
Put a new Kart in, matted and bordered, front grasping grooves, Ed Brown grip safety, short Videki trigger, carry bevel package, reliability package, chamber job, fit for headspace, and bead blasted, crowned the bbl (11 degree).
I took it out and at 10 yards with me looking through my tri-focals, off-hand, shot a group that just expanded the hole size in the old computer tower I was mad at!
Will EVERY 1911 do that after careful work is done? NO!
They are like women, sometimes (always?) make their own rules. Yes, as Dave says, if you understand the 1911 and good gunsmith practise you will end up with a good working and shooting gun, (generally).
Now, my opinion:
The link has but one function - to pull the bbl. down out of battery as the round is fired and it has a very limited job of (HELPING) the bbl back up into battery. The bbl. if properly fit will rest, without the link in, in the upper lugs fully; a range rod will tell you if it goes into the firing-pin hole when "linked up," and the lower lug feet will rest firmly on the slide stop pin! I realize it's more involved than this but when I have the hood fit right and the bbl. is up in the slide lugs and the range rod indicates it's in the firing pin hole, then I do no work on bbl lugs!
Then I cut the lower lugs and if you've done it right, for test purposes you don't even need a link in! Then the link you choose will pull the bbl down and help it up without any drag.
Talk about opinions? The bushing on my guns needs a wrench to remove and I ream interior dia. and then lap the bbl. in - rear of muzzle fit in bushing should be relieved about .005 -.008 to prevent rubbing on rear of bushing, this is important - BUT; You can find a WW11 old beat up colt that will shoot the pants off of our "custom" jobs! Crazy.
Harry B.
Dave Sample
Moderator
One of the tricks I invented to tell if I had a center hit on the primer is to insert an sized and de-capped empty case in the chamber and then look through the hole with the firing pin and stop out of the gun. If the hole is perfectly round looking through the primer hole in the case tells me I have done a good job on the fit of the lower lugs to the slide stop pin. If it's oval. I missed the mark. I believe that every little thing you do when building a 1911 adds to the accuracy and reliablity, but since every one I have worked on is slightly different, I would not even try to call it. Maybe that center firing pin hit on the primer does not add anything. Maybe it is just real nice work. Only De Shadow Know! How about .017 %? Harry? Help me out here?
Harry Bonar
New member
bbl fitting
Dear Dave:
You're right on here; that's a neat idea I'll use on my next bbl. fitting job!
You know, some smiths would like to have the pin hit a litle bit off center - they claim it hits the mixture against the anvil side; I don't know - I've always wanted center pin hits but you have to look long and hard to find one!
It scares me that some fellas "link up" a barrel on the 1911 to get it tight in the upper lugs, not realizing that you've just increased the distance of the lower lugs off of the slide stop! You and I (and others) know that's not right - that bbl' ought to be fit in upper lugs, and captured by the lower lugs fit to the slide stop pin!
But, it's just impossible to guarantee accuracy, functioning or much else - so many variables.
The last thing we want a "link" to do is act as a stop when that gun is in full recoul - the flat of the bbl lower lug area stops that! Fitting a new (not drop-in) bbl is the ONLY CURE for downplay in a bbl in the 1911. I think that good mechanical training and practise tells us this - we don't necessarilly need a book to teach us that!
Dear Dave:
You're right on here; that's a neat idea I'll use on my next bbl. fitting job!
You know, some smiths would like to have the pin hit a litle bit off center - they claim it hits the mixture against the anvil side; I don't know - I've always wanted center pin hits but you have to look long and hard to find one!
It scares me that some fellas "link up" a barrel on the 1911 to get it tight in the upper lugs, not realizing that you've just increased the distance of the lower lugs off of the slide stop! You and I (and others) know that's not right - that bbl' ought to be fit in upper lugs, and captured by the lower lugs fit to the slide stop pin!
But, it's just impossible to guarantee accuracy, functioning or much else - so many variables.
The last thing we want a "link" to do is act as a stop when that gun is in full recoul - the flat of the bbl lower lug area stops that! Fitting a new (not drop-in) bbl is the ONLY CURE for downplay in a bbl in the 1911. I think that good mechanical training and practise tells us this - we don't necessarilly need a book to teach us that!
Dave Sample
Moderator
We learned the hard way, Harry. The books were not that good when I started messing about with 1911's.
Twenty or thirty years ago, there was an article in American Rifleman, and in it, they did a step-by-step "accuratization" of a G.I. 1911, starting with nothing more than a long link, then adding a fitted bushing, then going back and welding-up the barrel, fitting the slide to frame, etc., and testing the accuracy at each stage of the process. I think they then rated the contribution of each mod to the overall accuracy. So, while it's difficult to judge the contribution of some steps when standing alone, if the steps are done in a somewhat progressive manner (you wouldn't fit the barrel, then fit the slide/frame, would you?), some estimates can be made that are better than guesses.
I like the Kuhnhausen books, and find them a valuable reference, along with Hallock's .45 Auto Handbook, Nonte's Pistolsmithing, Cooper on Handguns, etc.
I like the Kuhnhausen books, and find them a valuable reference, along with Hallock's .45 Auto Handbook, Nonte's Pistolsmithing, Cooper on Handguns, etc.
I do not think anyone is claiming Kuhnhausen has the only word, or the last word. The point on accuracy to be taken is that the variables are interrelated with some typically having more importance than others.
I have about 24 inches of shelf space with various 1911 'handbooks' and manuals. Some are better than others.
There are probably as many ways to perform some of the jobs as there are 'smiths doing the work.
The availability of oversized frames and slides has lessened the need to peen rails on a new gun.
I started when welding up was the only way to get decent fitting parts. They are now easily available from a number of vendors and the quality has gotten better and better (than you CNC).
I have about 24 inches of shelf space with various 1911 'handbooks' and manuals. Some are better than others.
There are probably as many ways to perform some of the jobs as there are 'smiths doing the work.
The availability of oversized frames and slides has lessened the need to peen rails on a new gun.
I started when welding up was the only way to get decent fitting parts. They are now easily available from a number of vendors and the quality has gotten better and better (than you CNC).