Opinions on Pain and the Ethical Taking of Animals.

F

Frank Haertlein

Moderator
Opinions on Pain and the Ethical Taking of Animals.


During that police action known as Grenada, a marine friend of mine was crossing an open field trying to get to an embankment on the other side with his platoon. As they were in the middle of the field they got incoming mortars and one guy behind and to the left of my buddy was killed instantly by the mortar. He continued running until he got to the embankment where he battled with the enemy. Some time later, a medic came upon my friend and immediately said "You're not fighting anymore.....did you know you were hit?" Apparently, when his buddy was taken out by the mortar, a piece of shrapnel hit him low in the left side near his kidney. He never knew he was hit and never felt any pain. The medic said that he would have died from loss of blood if he hadn't been treated. He didn't even know he was hit by a jagged two inch piece of metal and felt no pain whatsoever.

Some years ago I got a ricochet from a .223 Rem. 55 Gr. FMJ in the forehead just above the right eye. I was firing my Colt AR15 Carbine at the time and thought that there had been a miss ejected round from my weapon because just as I pulled the trigger, I felt my head go backwards. I looked at my gun wondering what the hell had happened and not seeing anything wrong continued firing. I had been shooting at what I thought was a plain steel pole but it turned out to be a hardened steel drilling rod used in mining operations.

The bullet just bounced back and hit me in the forehead above the right eye. About 15 or so seconds later, something wet was running down my face and into my eyes. My first thought was that "man, I didn't know it was that hot!" thinking I was sweating. Only when I whipped it away did I realize it was blood. I instantly knew I was hit in the head and the first thing I did was to see what part of my brain had been affected by the bullet. I looked to see that I could move all my toes and fingers, if I could remember things from a long time ago, if I had any loss of feeling over my body and all that kind of stuff. I couldn't see what part of my brain had been affected by the hit.

What I noticed most was a lack of any pain at all. I simply didn’t feel a thing. It wasn’t until later when the surgeon removed the bullet jacket fragments from my forehead that I found out that the jacket material from the bullet had embedded itself into my skull. It never entered the cranial cavity. It was one hell of a jagged piece of jacket material. I pulled out more pieces that the surgeon had missed for a few years after that.

Another time (I won’t get into the details but......) I got a .22 round right in the middle of the thigh between the knee and the ball joint of my left leg. I simply couldn’t believe I had just been shot and pulled down my pants only to see a neat little red hole. I didn’t feel a thing! I walked into the surgeons office and after cutting into my led with a scalpel where he thought the bullet was and then not finding the bullet, he told me to come back tomorrow. (so help me GOD this is a true story!)

The next day he used some kind of scope that let him look at my leg with x-rays in real time. He drew an "X" right above the bullet and then did the surgery again. The bullet had bounced off my bone and wound up near the top of my thigh. I never felt a thing from the original gunshot. What DID hurt was the after effects of the surgery but actually getting shot two different times and not feeling any pain combined with the story from my friend about getting hit with the mortar, confirmed what I suspected. Many times, humans, and by inference, animals, do not feel the kind of pain you might imagine when shot. Most animals die quickly without feeling any pain. The ethical hunter does all that is within his or her power to ensure clean, instant, humane one shot kills on the animals he hunts.

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Good point. But I'm not shooting next to you on the firing line...! ;)


In all seriousness, the only time that I've ever heard a deer cry out (they do, sometimes) was not out of pain, but out of exasperation and/or fear at not being able to run; her spine was severed. Doubtful that there was any pain at all. Other animals that were hit hard but well clear of the CNS gave no such cry, and just ran off to die, usually after having run only a few yards and stopping in the brush, thinking they were safe.

Saw one buck I shot run 50 yards, stop at the edge of a brush outcropping, and turn to watch me. His concern was the danger that was the movement and rustling that was me getting out from my poncho, and the loud shot that was me putting one through his liver and into his lungs. He died on that spot.
L.P.

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Will you, too, be one who stands in the gap?
 
Rabbits quite often squeal when shot - not all the time though. Of course all mine are taken at 150m off hand with a .22 rifle :)
so they don't.
Get the whistle of your kettle and blow it - thats what they sound like. Fox whistles work on that principle - old fox thinks he's got a rabbit - then bang.
With deer I don't know. Did shoot one a couple of weeks ago - managed to run 20 meters or so but then collapsed. No sound at all - I did end it quickly with a shot through the head but the first bullet had done the job by hitting the vital organs anyway.
did it feel pain ? who knows.
I'm sure the rabbits do sometime but you just end it as quick as possible by breaking their necks. I don't think it's wrong that they suffer pain - a hunters job is to minimize that by making sure the animal dies as quickly as possible.
 
Rabbit A.-- It's pragmatic views like the one you expressed in your last 2 sentences that'll getcha in trouble.

Nobody wants to hear that animals aren't people! What do you mean, "Top of the food chain??!?"
 
You mean bugs bunny ain't real !!!! :(

Animals don't know they are going to die , a rabbit doesn't know it's a rabbit. Does a rabbit think "what is the meaning of life "
which is actually 42 I think. Or somewhere around that.
Animals should always be killed with the least amount of pain. Wether it's for hunting or culling.
 
Well I shot myself in the right leg right behind the knee with a .22. Bullet found the main artery (sp) and since it was the path of least resistance, followed it all the way to my ankle. How it felt? Like holding onto a 220 volt wire. After the initial pain of an electical shock, it felt like someone had burned the inside of my leg. You can bet that I jumped around a little bit yelling "oh Ouch"... lol... well you fill in the sequence.

I have had several injuries where there was no pain and in each instance my adrenaline was running high. This I think is the key. When someone is focused, there is no pain.

Richard
 
Not so sure that this thread has a rightful place in TFL, but I assume you figured that folks that read on here assume all gun owners are blood thirsty killers of innocent animals. Using your own lack of pain from wounds as an example of animal suffering is simply fanning the flames of the movement that seeks to destroy our priviledges to hunt and fish, and go to rodeos and zoos.

Most people look at the killing of an animal in an anthropomorphic sense (that is; attributing human characteristics to animals). This is the mistake that allows so many people to take sides with animal rights activists on emotionally charged campaigns to end animal abuse and suffering by the hands of humans. Everything from lobsters to baby harp seals to spiders, they believe that all of these animals feel the same type of pain when injured or dying that we humans do. This has scientifically been proven incorrect.

Your example of a deer being shot is a good one, since so many deer are harvested by hunters each year. But even though deer populations are at all time highs, animal activists still want the killing to stop. Because you see they (the zealot leaders of these groups, like PETA, USHS, FOA) are rabidly against all uses of animals by man, whether it be hunting, domestic meat farming, animal medical testing, fur ranches, zoos, rodeos, bull fighting, and yes, even pet ownership.

The "Green" movement is much the same as the animal rights movement throughout the world. This ideology has caused domestic private land grabbing by government bureaucrats to save everything from snow owls to tree frogs. Internationally, it has ended important harvests of sea products to save everything from whales to sea lions. With millions of unsuspecting pet owners and animal lovers funding this multi-million dollar movement through their donations to various animal campaigns, backing such ridiculous legislation by greedy politicians is far too enticing to pass up. Therefore, the cycle continues to feed upon the unsuspecting, squashing various private property rights and changing human behavior through regulation. All this in the name of that cute cuddly little suffering critter of the week.
 
My father told me about one time when my grandfather and him were slaughering pigs. To distract them, they started feeding them corn. Then they may have hit the pig on the head (I don't remember exactly) and then cut the pig's throat. He said after the pig got up, he started eating corn again. After a while, he started staggering, then fell down and died.
 
Frank says:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
I couldn't see what part of my brain had been affected by the hit.
[/quote]

:D :D :D
 
I'm certain animals feel pain at least some of the time. I've had a few rabbits squeal when they were shot, sounds very much like a baby's cry. Nearly every animal I've ever shot was silent, though--I think only one or two rabbits out of hundreds have cried out.

I've never heard a noise from a deer or any other animal I can remember right offhand.

I don't concern myself overly with this situation because death by predator's in nature is often less "humane" than shooting is, expecially on a well-placed shot. Often predators, particularly in places like Africa, kill their prey by downing it and eating it to death. I understand wolves did that to buffalo (our bison), but can't personally attest to it.

Many natural things are very cruel, such as predator mothers bringing in live prey for their offspring to "practice on"--the prey is wounded/maimed and can't escape, but not so badly that it can't attempt to escape from the youngsters as they get to bring it down over and over again.

As long as hunters strive to make as clean a kill as possible and to put in a finishing shot as soon as is practical, I think the situation is very ethical. Few animals die of old age and most deaths in the wild involve trauma. Death by hunters may be far less cruel than other forms in most instances.

Death is an inevitable factor of life. The sooner we recognize that and internalize it, the better off we'll be.
 
In hunting, I've never considered for a moment whether or not my targeted animal feels pain. I have always felt that whatever pain might be felt should be for as short a period of time as I can make possible. The same holds for slaughter of domestic animals.

I reserve the words "abuse" and "cruelty" to include such things as gratuitous beating. And, of course, the sins of omission--lack of feed, water, proper vet care when needed.
 
There is no doubt that every ethical hunter seeks to make a quick clean harvest of any game animal pursued. The taking of game is a sacred event, where man connects directly with nature. As American Indians had reverence for their game, for the land they hunted, and for the continuation of life from season to season, modern man is no different.

It is this intimate connection with game animals, the pursuit, and the taking that renews and regenerates our soul, makes us feel apart of the natural world like no other endeavor. Man is as important to nature as the wind, the rain, and the sun.

Those who don't understand this may never understand it. You can not explain it or describe it, one can only experience it. Some folks just aren't cut out to be hunters. It is certainly true that one can buy fresh meat in the grocery store, but it is infinitely more fun shopping for the venison that fills my freezer.

God meant for man to steward these wild animals, not turn our backs to them.
 
I have absolutely no patience with those who eat meat and wear leather, etc. while criticizing hunting. I am one who kills because he hunts animals. All of us who utilize the meat or hides or furs of animals also hire killers to secure these items for us.

The fact that my hands get bloody from time to time doesn't make me any more or less a killer than the person who scarfs down a burger from MacDonald's or a steak at the Outback. It does make me realize the seriousness of the taking of a life of a creature. Taking an animal for it's food and clothing value makes me more appreciative of the process of life.

To be honest, I'd hate to have to return to the time when I had to personally kill all my meat. Wild game is pretty scarce in a metropolitan area of 1 1/2 million. I like the convenience of having someone else do it for me most of the time.

If we're so concerned with life, let's stop poisoning the termites which eat our houses. Let's tell our bodies to quit killing harmful bacteria. Let the mice and roaches overrun the places where our babies have to crawl and play. You get the idea.

Proper utilization of resources isn't a crime. Hunting, properly done, is such a utilization.

[Stepping down off my soapbox now! Sorry for the rant--I have to vent from time to time.]
 
Rod WMG;
You're not ranting. I think you have an excellent "handle" on the relationship of man, the NATURAL ANIMAL, to the other "natural animals" we share the earth with.

As you know, hunters undertake all methods to ensure a clean, humane kill. Caliber selection, bullet choice, accuracy, shot placement all add up to an effort to ensure clean one shot kills on the game we hunt. It is in our nature to be as ethical towards animals as possible.

But "NATURE" provides no such luxuries towards itself. The lion will often take an animal and start eating it while it is still alive and kicking. Bring this point up with a PETA member and see what they have to say about it! You see, man is far more "ethical" than the animal kingdom is to itself. Maybe we ascribe to many human emotions to the animals we live with?
 
I shot a deer at around 400 yards distance with a .300 Win Mag rifle. At that time, I wasn't any good at estimating drop, so I ended up blowing out its elbow (or whatever you call the joint on its front leg). I saw the deer make a run for it, stumble on its broken leg, get up and limp away into the bush, as its unsupported leg swung around. I went searching for it in the bush, and I found it, nursing its leg on the ground...it darted away (its still pretty quick on 3 legs) and I shot at the running target. He dropped, and I found that I had hit its rump. With two legs down, it couldn't move. I could tell it was more scared than hurt. I put it out of its misery with my handgun (357 Rem Max) through the chest.
I did feel pretty bad that I wasn't able to take him cleanly... I still wonder if it suffered much...
My next kill was a wild hog. About 50 yards, one shot with my Dan Wesson 357 max through the head (hit it right above the eye socket, 158gr JSP handload). It was facing me, and I aimed for right between the eyes. Surprisingly, after it dropped to the ground, it squealed and kicked up a lot of dust for about 15 seconds. I was told later that that's typical of a head shot on a hog.
 
Two incidents:

Incident 1:
I fell down the staircase here at home (wearing socks that slipped on the carpet). I heard and felt my big toe break (in two places as it turned out.

I knew I was "damaged" and passed out. I also wet myself while I was unconscious (very embarrassing).

Incident 2:
Cutting a potato, the potato twisted in my hand and the razor-sharp chef's knife literally took a fillet of my index finger, left hand, approx. 3/4" long by 1/2" wide, down to the bone. I felt nothing it was so quick. Result?? I was able to pack it with gauze and antiseptic cream and bandage it -- no sweat!

My conclusion?

If it's quick, and you don't see or hear it coming, it's a damn sight less traumatic.

Nearly every animal I have ever shot has been in that category -- they were shot before they knew it. I hope they didn't suffer any pain -- but I don't lose sleep over their death.

BTW, I even belt fish with a heavy lump of wood when I bring 'em inboard, but then I know how they feel, I nearly drowned when I came off a jet-ski and broke a rib and couldn't swim ...... but that's another story ;)

BT
 
Sambonatur:

Tell me you aren't taking any more 400 yard shots, or else have come upon a good/much better technique of range estimation?

Please?

(FYI, yes, I'll take a shot at that range, but only when I know the range for sure, and I use drop tables and a load that's only 9" low at 400. That's about my top range, though, and I'm set up to go much, much farther out...)

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Will you, too, be one who stands in the gap?
 
Come on folk's. "Does a butter bean feel more pain when you pick it or when you eat it?"
Take your game and raise your crops in the most ethical manner you know how. I'm sure that there are people who consider if bacteria feel pain when you take an antibiotic! Let's eat!
Hank
 
I believe hunting is a lot more humane than the commercial slaughterhouse. Once past a novice hunter, most folks take pride in "one shot, clean kill". As Bruce said, they don't know its coming and if you are an ethical hunter, they never know.

Contrast that with the commercial slaughterhouse; being herded together, the smells of death and fear, the sounds....you get the picture. Of course one can delude themselves and remove themselves from the natural order and believe meat comes in cello-wrapped white styrofoam from a farm ;).

No matter how you look at it, until we become photosynthetic beings, whether carnivore,omnivore or vegetarian, life is built upon life and some lifeform dies to sustain the life of another.

Like Hank said...be ethical,.... don't be cruel, accept your lot as an organic being and get yourself a nice bottle of wine to go with dinner


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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"
 
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