Opinions on CZ 75 BD
- Thread starter ronl
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Walt Sherrill
New member
The CZ guide rod has been plastic for many years. And for the alloy-framed guns (PCR, P01, etc.) it's really important that you KEEP the guide rod plastic. (Delrin, actually.) The shorter barrel makes the guide rod travel in a greater vertical arc as the slide cycles, and with a metal guide rod and alloy frame, you eventually will get some receiver stop wear (that's where the guide rod rests). By bending, the plastic guide rod (which is a full-length guide-rod in the compact models) is simply flexing rather than staying straight. It's not guiding the recoil spring at that point, as the spring is compressed when it's free to bend. (I think the guide rod is mostly used to install that darned spring, as once it's in the gun, the slide encloses it and keeps it in a relatively small channel.)
I've never heard of a functional problem with the plastic guide rods, except one CZ-97 that came from the factory with a screwed up plastic guide rod -- they couldn't rack the slide straight out of the box.
I've shot tens of thousands of rounds through compact, full-size CZs, 97s, etc., and never had a problem. At the range and in competition. I've had pre-Bs with metal guide rods, and never could tell a functional difference; the same for the CZ that could use full-length guide rods -- full-length or truncated didn't seem to make a difference.
You can consider the use of the plastic guide rod as a cheapening of the design, but its really a more functional change. And since the part is a non-stressed piece, whether it's plastic or metal is essentially irrelevant (unless you have an alloy-framed gun.) With an alloy framed gun, a metal guide rod would actually damage the gun, over time.
Roll pin rust? I've NEVER heard of a single CZ roll pin rusting through, and I've been following these guns for a lot of years. (Never really heard about it in other guns, for that matter.) Perhaps if you carried and stored the gun in a highly salty or otherwise corrosive or moist environment it could be a problem. But you can get the replacement parts from CZ for almost nothing, and have spares if you really think it's a potential problem.
As for solid pins: I wouldn't be surprised if those solid steel pins worked their way out over time, unless you've staked them. But staking them makes them difficult to get out. That was a problem with the earlier (pre-B) models. (I had a number of those models, too.)
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I've never heard of a functional problem with the plastic guide rods, except one CZ-97 that came from the factory with a screwed up plastic guide rod -- they couldn't rack the slide straight out of the box.
I've shot tens of thousands of rounds through compact, full-size CZs, 97s, etc., and never had a problem. At the range and in competition. I've had pre-Bs with metal guide rods, and never could tell a functional difference; the same for the CZ that could use full-length guide rods -- full-length or truncated didn't seem to make a difference.
SIG has a similar problem with folks getting upset about plastic guide rods in their guns about 10 years ago. They finally changed back, as a public relations sop to customers, but not because the steel guide rod made the gun work better. Glock, on the other hand, has used plastic guide rods for years, and they seem to work even if they break.
You can consider the use of the plastic guide rod as a cheapening of the design, but its really a more functional change. And since the part is a non-stressed piece, whether it's plastic or metal is essentially irrelevant (unless you have an alloy-framed gun.) With an alloy framed gun, a metal guide rod would actually damage the gun, over time.
Roll pin rust? I've NEVER heard of a single CZ roll pin rusting through, and I've been following these guns for a lot of years. (Never really heard about it in other guns, for that matter.) Perhaps if you carried and stored the gun in a highly salty or otherwise corrosive or moist environment it could be a problem. But you can get the replacement parts from CZ for almost nothing, and have spares if you really think it's a potential problem.
As for solid pins: I wouldn't be surprised if those solid steel pins worked their way out over time, unless you've staked them. But staking them makes them difficult to get out. That was a problem with the earlier (pre-B) models. (I had a number of those models, too.)
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greghalliday
New member
Get one. You'll love it. Mine has never had any problems at all. I think it's malfunctioned, like, once, and that was probably my fault.
Walt Sherrill
New member
You describe the position of the guide rod when the gun is in battery. But the minute the slide starts to move back, the barrel slides rearward and disconnects from the guide rod, and the lower half of guide rod end rests in the receiver stop area on the frame. (You'll notice that the bottom half of the guide rod base is exposed when first mounted on the barrel, during barrel reinstallation. There's a reason for that.)
The guide rod needs a solid base or it won't have a place for the spring to compress against. That is the potential point of wear with an alloy-framed CZ. (Think about it: if the guide rod and spring stayed connected to the rest on the barrel, the recoil spring couldn't work!)
CZ has discussed the problem with metal guide rods in their alloy-framed compacts, after seeing significant wear on guns sent in for service. It now warns that the warranty will not honor wear-related damage if steel guide rods are used in alloy-framed guns and there is wear-related damage in that area. I learned of the details from Mike Eagleshield, who was (and may still be) head gunsmith at CZ-USA several years back. This topic can be found in the FAQ of the CZ-Forum.
Slide wear has not been an issue, and I didn't mention it. Slides on CZs are metal; frames are alloy (softer) on some models, particularly some compact models. The problem is limited to alloy-framed compact model frames.
There's no problem with steel guide rods in steel-framed CZs, and you can actually use a brass door hinge pin (Stanley) with trivial cutting for proper length in some models. That brass is arguably better than steel for this application. Most of the 9mm full-size model CZs can't use a full-length guide rod -- no opening in the front of the slide. (The SA models and the .40s do have the opening.)
With some "pinned" guns, the opening in the frame is tapered. That is the case with the CZ firing pin retention pin. Try to drive it out the wrong way and you've created a mess. My first CZs (pre-Bs) had staked pins. I prefer the roll pins. Tanfoglio now uses them in most of their CZ Clones.
I have a BHP, too. With that gun, the recoil spring is held in position by the slide stop -- but when you install it, it's just like the CZ -- resting on the barrel stop. (I made the mistake of installing the BHP recoil spring guide rod upside down once, when I first got it... what a pain. It doesn't like to come apart, when you do that. I learned a lesson, there...)
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Walt Sherrill
New member
Have you noticed the kidney-shaped slot in the barrel lug on the 75 series guns? That's shape shows how far the barrel moves to the rear and how far it drops as the slide moves to the rear. The lugs on the barrel move the slide to the rear with the barrel, until the barrel drops away; momentum then causes the slide to continue its rearward movement, compressing the recoil spring. The barrel will move almost 1/2" to the rear, tilting as it goes.
But, while the barrel moves to the rear, the front end of the guide rod does not. It tilts, but its reward movement is minimal. If it stayed pressed against the barrel rest as you claim, that would have to mean that it's stretching and compressing with each shot, and somehow I don't think that's happening.
That's because the bottom half of the guide rod is resting on the frame -- in the area called the receiver stop. If you had a cutaway model of the CZ, you could see this in action.
With the BHP, the slide stop pin holds the rear of the slide stop in place, while the barrel moves to the rear, pushing the slide with it. Are you going to tell us the BHP slide stop base remains in contact with the barrel rest throughout the firing cycle, too? If so, something magical is happening with that slide stop pin.
Both guns use same basic Browning locked-breech design, with minor differences. The Pin in the BHP serves the same function as the receiver stop in the CZ.
The the CZ firing pin safety is not notorious for breaking. It was the firing pin retention roll pin that broke, sometimes.
I dry fired several 75Bs extensively and never had a problem, but busted the roll pin in a new 40B with just a few hundred strokes. That's when I first realized the roll-pin problem was real. I replaced that first one with a replacement roll pin from a nearby hardware store -- cost me $.75, and I had to cut it with a dremel to the proper length. CZ fixed the problem with the doubled roll pins I mentioned in an earlier message. A couple of clever hobby gunsmiths also came up with a modification to the firing pin that kept it from going out the back of the slide (as intended), but kept it from breaking the retention pin. They enlarged the slot/cutaway area on the firing pin. I had that one of my CZs.
If you send a gun off to CZ for trigger work, and it has a solid pin, the gun will come back with the trigger pin staked. Been there, done that. The CZ gunsmith, at one time, recommended staking solid trigger pins. Note: the frames are not fragile. Some are cast and some of the newer alloy designs are forged. It depends on the model.
You're right on one point -- I miswrote when I said the firing pin retention roll pin was tapered. (I didn't mean the pins were tapered, but that the openings in which they are placed were tapered. And when I wrote firing pin retention roll pin, I was thinking EXTRACTOR pin opening in the slide. (I sometimes also do that with more important stuff!! And to think that I was once a technical writer!!) My error.
You can only drive the extractor pin out from the top (downward) through the bottom of the slide. The trigger pin opening is not tapered -- that's why staking was sometimes required. (We used to have discussions on the CZ forum about the best way to stake a solid pin -- as some who replaced the roll pins didn't stake them and they continued to work their way out.)
Why not check with CZ-USA and see whether what I'm saying here is correct? And confirm some of your other assertions that you are presenting as facts.
And those plastic snap caps aren't worth warm spit. Just get a good one, if you think snap caps are needed.
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But, while the barrel moves to the rear, the front end of the guide rod does not. It tilts, but its reward movement is minimal. If it stayed pressed against the barrel rest as you claim, that would have to mean that it's stretching and compressing with each shot, and somehow I don't think that's happening.
That's because the bottom half of the guide rod is resting on the frame -- in the area called the receiver stop. If you had a cutaway model of the CZ, you could see this in action.
With the BHP, the slide stop pin holds the rear of the slide stop in place, while the barrel moves to the rear, pushing the slide with it. Are you going to tell us the BHP slide stop base remains in contact with the barrel rest throughout the firing cycle, too? If so, something magical is happening with that slide stop pin.
Both guns use same basic Browning locked-breech design, with minor differences. The Pin in the BHP serves the same function as the receiver stop in the CZ.
The the CZ firing pin safety is not notorious for breaking. It was the firing pin retention roll pin that broke, sometimes.
I dry fired several 75Bs extensively and never had a problem, but busted the roll pin in a new 40B with just a few hundred strokes. That's when I first realized the roll-pin problem was real. I replaced that first one with a replacement roll pin from a nearby hardware store -- cost me $.75, and I had to cut it with a dremel to the proper length. CZ fixed the problem with the doubled roll pins I mentioned in an earlier message. A couple of clever hobby gunsmiths also came up with a modification to the firing pin that kept it from going out the back of the slide (as intended), but kept it from breaking the retention pin. They enlarged the slot/cutaway area on the firing pin. I had that one of my CZs.
If you send a gun off to CZ for trigger work, and it has a solid pin, the gun will come back with the trigger pin staked. Been there, done that. The CZ gunsmith, at one time, recommended staking solid trigger pins. Note: the frames are not fragile. Some are cast and some of the newer alloy designs are forged. It depends on the model.
You're right on one point -- I miswrote when I said the firing pin retention roll pin was tapered. (I didn't mean the pins were tapered, but that the openings in which they are placed were tapered. And when I wrote firing pin retention roll pin, I was thinking EXTRACTOR pin opening in the slide. (I sometimes also do that with more important stuff!! And to think that I was once a technical writer!!) My error.
You can only drive the extractor pin out from the top (downward) through the bottom of the slide. The trigger pin opening is not tapered -- that's why staking was sometimes required. (We used to have discussions on the CZ forum about the best way to stake a solid pin -- as some who replaced the roll pins didn't stake them and they continued to work their way out.)
Why not check with CZ-USA and see whether what I'm saying here is correct? And confirm some of your other assertions that you are presenting as facts.
And those plastic snap caps aren't worth warm spit. Just get a good one, if you think snap caps are needed.
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Micropterus
New member
Gunnotes, Walt is quite correct. I encourage you to take a look at one of your own guns. Here's one of mine (CZ75 Compact):
Sorry for the crappy pic, but you get the idea. The frame is cut so that the rear of the guide rod is captured in a recess when the barrel slides back and drops.
As the barrel cam slides backwards inside the slot in the frame, it seperates from the rear of the guide rod when the guide rod is captured in the round recess of the frame. As the barrel slides forward the cam picks the rear of the guide rod back up again.
Using a steel guiderod in an alloy framed gun is going to accelerate wear. Stick with the plastic guiderod. I've never had one fail.
If I'm not mistake, the block in the Sig frame is steel. Even in alloy framed guns.
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Walt Sherrill
New member
Actually, as the slide comes forward, it captures the barrel and the kidney-shaped slot in the barrel lug causes the barrel to rise as it moves forward. And, magically, that barrel slams home right behind the rear of the guide rod, which never moved. The barrel's locking lugs also slip into place in the top of the slide.
Just like magic.
The Browning Hi-Power also performs a similar magic trick.
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I'd like see the %'s on this. Never heard of this one, in fact, never heard CZ and "blunder" used in the same sentence until now.
About the cast frames, they are a steel alloy and are quite forgiving. It's not necessarily the casting process alone, but also the type of alloy used in the casting to determine how malleable the frame.
I have performed lots of machine work on CZ frames and I feel their chromium content is fairly high. This results in a strong, somewhat elastic frame. I base this on working with cast carbon steel 1911 frames. I can handle a stripped CZ frame and surface rust is very slow to appear. Conversely, a 1911 frame will rust very quickly under the same circumstances.
Micropterus
New member
Even I explained it wrong adding to the confusion.
All the detent on the barrel cam does is retain the guide rod for mounting purposes. Once the slide/barrel/spring/rod assembly is slid onto the frame, the round hole on the frame captures the rear of the guide rod where it stays until it is disassembled again. Once the barrel slides forward, it picks up the little point on the rear of the guide rod in the cam detent and the assembly comes off the same way it went on.
Walt explained it much better than I did, the rear of the guide rod stays put until the pistol is disassembled and it is picked up again by the barrel cam.
The little detent is really needed to keep the rear of the guide rod in the right position. If its not in proper position, then when you slide the slide asembly on the frame, the rear of the guiderod can get caught on the shoulders at the front of the round hole. The guide rod will then push out the front of the slide before the slide is even all the way on.
All the detent on the barrel cam does is retain the guide rod for mounting purposes. Once the slide/barrel/spring/rod assembly is slid onto the frame, the round hole on the frame captures the rear of the guide rod where it stays until it is disassembled again. Once the barrel slides forward, it picks up the little point on the rear of the guide rod in the cam detent and the assembly comes off the same way it went on.
Walt explained it much better than I did, the rear of the guide rod stays put until the pistol is disassembled and it is picked up again by the barrel cam.
The little detent is really needed to keep the rear of the guide rod in the right position. If its not in proper position, then when you slide the slide asembly on the frame, the rear of the guiderod can get caught on the shoulders at the front of the round hole. The guide rod will then push out the front of the slide before the slide is even all the way on.
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Walt Sherrill
New member
I wouldn't call the passive firing pin block system a blunder, but the Tanfoglio version (Witness, Baby Eagle, David, etc.) is arguably better and has almost no effect on the trigger pull/weight. That is NOT the case with the CZ approach (which is why some competitive shooters remove the firing pin block, and rework the innards a bit.)
I have a well-gunsmithed 75BSA with the FPB still installed, and it's hard to tell that it's there. If I were a world class shooter (I have trouble being a neighborhood class shooter), I could probably see that more-drastic modification, but I'm not.
I have a well-gunsmithed 75BSA with the FPB still installed, and it's hard to tell that it's there. If I were a world class shooter (I have trouble being a neighborhood class shooter), I could probably see that more-drastic modification, but I'm not.
Walt Sherrill
New member
flwolf said:
Unless you're using the rear of your Glock's slide as a hammer, the plastic will hold up pretty well.
I actually prefer stock Glock sights to the stock CZ sights -- and I've had a lot more CZs than most folks. (Had quite a few Glocks, too, and still have a 37 and 38.) Many of my CZs -- and there have been quite a few over the years -- ended up with after-market night sights.
My CZ-85 Combat came with adjustable sights; they look like crap but work well. (It's the same sight that was on the older Kadet Kits... but that may have changed in recent years -- since there is more than one type of Kadet Kit, now.)
peacefulgary
New member
The CZ 75 is a great gun that has been around (and copied) for a very long time.
But for a 9mm it is a BIG and heavy pistol to be sure.
I was actually crazy enough to conceal carry one for a short while....a very short while.
But for a 9mm it is a BIG and heavy pistol to be sure.
I was actually crazy enough to conceal carry one for a short while....a very short while.
peacefulgary
New member
Which models and which generation?
I've never know Glocks to be "notorious" for breaking any springs.
My comment was in regards to sight picture as well as durability. To me, the $60 Glock night sights transform these pistols. YMMV.
To each their own. I honestly am OK with the stock CZ75 3-dot sights. The dots are small (and the phosphorescent paint is kind of hokey and no substitute for real night sights), but I have no problem putting shots on target with them.
Fishbed77: said:
One of the concessions I can make to getting older is that I can replace the stock sights on just about any of the guns that I own, to make it easier for my middle aged eyes to shoot and hit the targets. I could have made do with the stock CZ 75B sights myself but the CZ Custom F.O. front sight & blind rear sight set made such a dramatic improvement for me in the way my CZ 75B shoots that I felt obliged to mention it. YMMV and that is awesome
