Opinions on .45acp Powder Type

robhic

New member
Took my Glock G36 out today for some practice and, yes, to get some cases for when I start loading in earnest. Got home and did a fairly detailed clean (I do that sometimes during the year for this very reason) and noticed the carbon build-up I normally see after shooting factory .45 ammo.

Front end is all grey outside and insides are full of carbon in the channels and action parts. No problems and it shoots fine, I just don't get this in my Glock 9MMs. I shot about 75 rounds, grabbed the cases and came home.

Don't have the slightest idea what powder is used but all new, store-bought ammo. What, in your educated/experienced opinions might reduce this if at all? I have now: Universal, HS-6, W231 and Titegroup all new. Would a hotter/faster powder eliminate some of this? It's more cosmetic as the gun runs fine, but if I could clean things up and experiment with different loads, it might be interesting. Thanks for any information/advice.
 
Some ammo just runs dirty. Could be the type of powder, could be the charge is a little to light to make the powder happy/burn entirely. Oft pretty hard to pin down why one ammo may be dirtier than another. Univeral, Hs6, 231 and titegroup are all good powders not withstanding individual tastes. Load in confidence, you'll find a favorite.
 
The short answer is: the reason why 45 ACP tends to run sootier than 9mm is due to its lower operating pressure.

So . . .

Would a hotter/faster powder eliminate some of this?

. . . Yes. Basically.

I have no experience with Universal.

HS-6 is problematic for 45 ACP with sooty, inconsistent burns - Unless you run heavies (230 grain bullets) and pump them up really good. Then - and only then - it works pretty darn good.

TiteGroup works pretty well with all bullet weights, but is best suited for plated or jacketed bullets. This, being due to the fact that it runs so darn hot that it tends to melt lead and deposit it in the barrel. I never use TG with lead bullets - period. Generally runs clean though.

W231 is perhaps the ultimate 45 ACP propellant. Runs great with pretty much any bullet weight - lead, plated, or jacketed. Will do pretty much any job, save for full power rounds. And it has a well-earned reputation for running clean.
 
.45ACP is a low pressure round compared to 9mm, likely the reason it tends to be a bit more sooty.
I'm not buying it...shotguns are "low pressure", but as I remember from my trapshooting days, Clays left the bore remarkably clean. However, someone will have to shoot some Clays in a .45 to verify if the cleanliness of Clays can be generalized to the .45 ACP.

Here are some posts relative to Clays as a powder for the .45 ACP:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?74375-Clays-in-the-45-ACP
 
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Some propellants tend to run cleaner than others - all things being equal.

It's a gray, subjective area. Any propellant will run sooty if you turn it down far enough. Just like any propellant will run clean if you turn it up enough.

But on balance, the higher the operating pressure, the cleaner the propellant will run.
 
TiteGroup works pretty well with all bullet weights, but is best suited for plated or jacketed bullets. This, being due to the fact that it runs so darn hot that it tends to melt lead and deposit it in the barrel. I never use TG with lead bullets - period. Generally runs clean though.

I have never heard this about Titegroup.
 
I find TiteGroup works in a small window very well. Get outside of it it can be a bit snappy or dirty. I like the results I get with Universal for my target loads.
 
Basically, the slower burning the powder the higher the pressure needed to get clean burn. The ammo factories probably use some bulk powder they have on hand. If they load a lot of 9mm, it wouldn't surprise me if they try to use the same powder in the lower pressure 45 Auto round and that it is dirtier there. But there are cleaner powders. Very light loads of Trail Boss burn dead clean. Clays is clean, but you can't use much of it without the peak pressure getting into the +P range, so it's best as a target load powder, though it will give you some fair velocity with a light bullet and more than Trail Boss does (because you can't fit enough Trail Boss in to do better).
 
Basically, the slower burning the powder the higher the pressure needed to get clean burn.
Some of the faster powders like Bullseye and Unique can be pretty dirty too.


The ammo factories probably use some bulk powder they have on hand. If they load a lot of 9mm, it wouldn't surprise me if they try to use the same powder in the lower pressure 45 Auto round and that it is dirtier there.
Conjecture, or have you seen something from an ammo company that would indicate that was the case? In all the industries that I have worked in, things were more exacting than just using something for an application because it was,"on hand".
 
Interesting. Thanks for the information, it looks like I am at least thinking in the right direction. Right now I have on hand to load 185gr plated bullets and looks like W231 and Titegroup will get tried first then Universal. I'm starting at lower levels so this may still be sooty to start.

If it stays that way I'll work up a bit at a time and see which one starts getting cleaner results first. Still gives me a good bit of room to play with because I'm at the lowest loading in the manual to start. Thanks again to all who replied. This'll be my first little "project" to play with besides just loading in general.
 
Dahermit,

I've shot 3000 rounds loaded with Bullseye in a 1911 before a cycle malfunction occurred. The sootiness comes from a mix of graphite and carbon, but that's different from having flakes of unburned powder or other poor burn issues. So, yes, there are fouling peculiarities to different powders. What I said applies "in general", as I stated, but not in every particular in every specific case.

Conjecture is correct, which is why I used "probably", but its not baseless. What the problem stems from is that while there have been some recent advances, powder making processes used for the last eighty years have defied efforts to control resulting powder burn rates tightly, and lots have had sometimes considerable differences in burn rate from one to the next. Canister grade powders, as are sold to handloaders, have their burn rates adjusted by blending with enough of a past bulk lot that was either faster or slower, as needed, to bring the new lot's burn rate closer to the nominal burn rate, as is necessary to keep load manual data valid. But that costs money to do, so manufacturers buy the less expensive bulk powder and rely on pressure guns rather than recipes to adjust their loads to its variations. However, because of that variation, a powder purchased for one group of cartridges sometimes winds up too far from the nominal burn rate to produce desired velocities at safe pressure or practical loading densities, so they repurpose it for cartridges its burn rate is more appropriate for.

A couple of examples: Board member Hummer70, who worked at Aberdeen Proving Grounds as a Test Director, said the worst example he'd seen was a lot of, IIRC, 7.62 powder that was 30% faster than the nominal burn rate and could not be used to load that chambering at all, so it was set aside for something else. Note that the military is pickier than a commercial loader. Their target velocities for rifle ammunition at a given bullet weight are typically 1/3 what SAAMI standards allow in order to keep different weapon sight systems accurate, and they have a gas port pressure window that must be met while both producing that velocity and not exceeding peak pressure limits.

In the 1960's that practice lead to one lot of WC846 for 7.62 NATO Ball being disqualified as too fast, and being set aside for other ammunition. When 5.56 NATO was being developed, it was found that WC846 was too slow for it, so they tried that fast lot and found it was just right and asked Olin to produce more at that faster burn rate, which Olin obliged them with, but changing the designation to WC844 to be clear which lot was what. Today the canister grade versions are sold as BL-C(2) and H335, respectively, which gives you a sense of the error in that fast lot of WC846.

Another example that isn't direct proof but more a strong implication that powder is repurposed the same way in the commercial ammunition industry came from a fellow on another board who has been periodically pulling bullets from Remington Core-Lokt rifle ammunition in the same chambering (either .308 or 30-06, IIRC) and bullet weight over several decades and found various spherical, stick and even a flake powder in the cases at one time or another. I know of no canister grade flake that is sold as slow enough and suitable for medium power rifle cartridges today, so I assume it was an accidental result of bulk lot variation, but I suppose it could have been an experiment. The main point is that the appearance of the powder kept changing in no apparent pattern, so it must have been selected from what they had in stock that was of appropriate burn rate at the time, and no effort was being made to stick to a particular load formulation.
 
.45ACP is a low pressure round compared to 9mm, likely the reason it tends to be a bit more sooty.

This was the first thing I suspected as the 45 smoked a lot more and the 9 I generally shoot are faster and even +P rounds but relatively smoke-free. I might just get the hang of all this 'magical' stuff yet! ;)
 
Clean Buring Powders in .45 acp

There are a number of powders that will burn cleanly in .45 acp.

Alliant American Select is a bulky, low-nitroglycerin content flake power that is slightly slower than Bulleye and burns much cleaner with virtually no muzzle flash (unlike Bullseye and especially Unique). When used with jacketed or plated bullets in .45 acp., cleaning will be rare event. It also works quite well with 200 gr LSWC bullets. It is also a very good powder for lead and coated bullets in .38 special from target to full-pwer velocities.

WST is also a powder that burns super clean at .45 acp pressures. However, it provides only low velocities in .38 special cartridges.

Accurate #2 works well with plated bullets in .45 acp. as do Vihtavouri N-310 (very fast powder mostly used with lead bullets) and N-320 ( which burns best at near maximum load).

Hodgdon Clays is also a fast-burning clean powder that works well in .45 acp., mostly with lead bullets. Formerly manufactured in Australia (before the powder factory burned down), it is now made in Canada. More data are needed to determine whether the Canadian formulation is a clean, consistent, and fast as its predecessor.

Solo 1000 is a single base stick power that is also very clean but I haven't seen any available for years.

I tried Hodgdon Universal in .45 acp but got a lot of unburned power and erratic velocities in target loads.
 
8ring,

The fire was in the drier used for the Clays flake manufacturing process, but it was not the whole plant. It did cause the Clays line to disappear from the shelves for over a year as they built a new drier and got it on line, but now the Clays powders are back and still made by ADI in Australia. The ADI site had news posted on it about all this while it was going on.
 
231 is supposedly a good 45ACP powder.

Wait.... Did someone say they found Clays???
I have yet to find any, since I've been reloading!!!

Out of my 4" Springfield Armory Champion I usually use Ramshot Silhouette.
Course I don't shoot 230gr. either. I usually stick with 185, and 200 gr. bullets.
 
I personally have a yuuuuuuuuuuuuge preference for Power Pistol and BE-86 in my 9s & 45s but I've had good results with CFE Pistol, HP-38 and even the cursed Titegroup. Regarding most of those powders they were a bit dirty at less than 75% max and I think the alliant powders did a bit better. but this is offhand recollection, not a review of my data. Start low, work up, yada, yada, yada. CFE pistol I've done some recentl loading with and is definitely dirtier than PP or be-86 but, on the other hand, unless you're getting crazy fouling, who cares? You clean your guns anyway.
 
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