opinions desired

[Taco-XL]

Over penetration is not my first thought when dealing with a would-be threat...its stopping that threat, not slowing it down or waiting on it to submit. STOPPING the threat ASAP is the only way to deal with someone trying to kill you. If you are not willing to take someones life to defend your own/family/friends life then you are not ready mentally to be relied upon to do so. The gun/caliber is irrelevant at that point.

Over penetration is not much of a concern with slower heavier calibers, which is why 45 acp is IMHO the best all around HD choice. Proven STOPPING power and reduced chance of OP.

And I say this as respectfully as possible, but the idea that "i shoot this gun/caliber well, and that is good enough" is an unwillingness to progress one's ability and to learn and develop better more suitable skills with better self defense options. Self defense is not something to take lightly nor is it something that doesnt require proper training/practice to do effectively. Anything worth doing is worth doing right. I want to give myself as many advantages as possible to tip the scale in my favor. LE, military, feds, do not use 22 and neither should we when better options are available. And I agree the 22 will work FOR NOW, i cannot stress enough the importance of upgrading caliber AND skill level.

 

[Panfisher]

Buy more 22 LR ammo and let her shoot. Keep the rifle clean and functioning properly. Maybe even consider aftermarket stock or switching to a 10/22 if she likes the short rifle better.

 

[Theohazard]

Over penetration is not much of a concern with slower heavier calibers, which is why 45 acp is IMHO the best all around HD choice. Proven STOPPING power and reduced chance of OP.

You have it backwards: Over-penetration is usually worse with slower, heavier calibers. Slower projectiles lack the velocity needed to reliably fragment in drywall, and heavier bullets have more momentum. That's why handgun rounds and buckshot tend to penetrate through many, many layers of drywall before stopping. If you're trying to minimize over-penetration, .45 ACP is one of the worst rounds to use for HD, even with JHPs.

 

[LoveMyGuns808]

Dude Skizzims I love that hi point rig!!!

TACO-XL

Over penetration is not my first thought when dealing with a would-be threat...its stopping that threat, not slowing it down or waiting on it to submit. STOPPING the threat ASAP is the only way to deal with someone trying to kill you. If you are not willing to take someones life to defend your own/family/friends life then you are not ready mentally to be relied upon to do so. The gun/caliber is irrelevant at that point.

Over penetration is not much of a concern with slower heavier calibers, which is why 45 acp is IMHO the best all around HD choice. Proven STOPPING power and reduced chance of OP.

And I say this as respectfully as possible, but the idea that "i shoot this gun/caliber well, and that is good enough" is an unwillingness to progress one's ability and to learn and develop better more suitable skills with better self defense options. Self defense is not something to take lightly nor is it something that doesnt require proper training/practice to do effectively. Anything worth doing is worth doing right. I want to give myself as many advantages as possible to tip the scale in my favor. LE, military, feds, do not use 22 and neither should we when better options are available. And I agree the 22 will work FOR NOW, i cannot stress enough the importance of upgrading caliber AND skill level.

I do agree with what you are saying about needing to evolve from a .22, but I feel like you've kind of disregarded previous posts. I'm pretty sure I've stated (but if I haven't, i sincerely apologize, because it is priority number one) that defending my family while i'm present or not is my number one priority. There is no discussion over that, I want to be absolutely sure that they will be able to first and foremost defend themselves and effectively neutralize all threats immediately.

Over penetration was not my first thought in my process, and it never will be. As stated up above, the safety of my family is and always will be priority number one. With that being said however, as a responsible gun owner, over penetration CANNOT be overlooked, because I am responsible for every shot, both those that connect with the intended target and those that may not. I believe that once you decide to use firearms to defend yourself, the resolve to take a life to save your lifers has to be just as important as the responsibility to minimize the damage to the least necessary amount.

I own a 9mm and have owned a .45, but shooting a pistol for her is out of the question at the moment. She is too uncomfortable to even think about a pistol for HD, but I do like the thought of the carbine. I have multiple options and I constantly look for more and more viable options, but I started this thread with the thought of getting rid of the shotgun. I also stated that we go out and shoot together as much as possible, and that I do try to get her to shoot new things to see what she would like to shoot, and be comfortable to shoot. Never have I stated that the .22 is our little Alamo or end-all-be-all battle rifle.

I have my own beliefs and experiences with the .22…but that's for another post. I DO NOT want for this thread to become another .22 war.

With all that being said, I do respect your viewpoint and your passion to constantly better yourself and your family to ensure as perfect a defense as possible.

 

[rickyrick]

Get a dog... That buys you time and gives you enough warning to get whatever firearm you own....

Outside Of the home, pistol is really your only option...
Save pennies if you need to

 

[LoveMyGuns808]

We're definitely working on that...once we can rent at or own a place that allows for pets, we'll be on the look for dogs

 

[Mosin-Marauder]

Yorkshire Terriers make one heck of a racket.

 

[kilimanjaro]

Yorkies are also far more agressive than your average Labrador.

 

[rickyrick]

Yep all you need is advance warning... Dogs can do that better than any security system out there

 

[Taco-XL]

The OP question was should I trade the shotgun for a ccw pistol, but she isnt comfortable with a pistol and wont use it? Im confused at what the question is now. If she wont use a handgun and scoffs at the very notion of it, then you have already answered your own question. So no, it would not be wise to trade IF the only factor is finding a weapon for her. If she wont shoot a shotgun OR a pistol, and you want to trade simply because you just want a ccw, then trade on.

Slower projectiles lack the velocity needed to reliably fragment in drywall

Good defense rounds should not 'fragment', only expand. A larger bullet does not always have more momentum. Momentum is mass x velocity. A larger bullet moving slower (which applies to the 45) can potentially have less momentum than a smaller round with super high velocity. Also a larger bullet, given everything else equal (weight and velocity), will slow down faster (less penetration) because there is more surface area for forces to act upon it and slow it down. One of the reasons the 40 was born, it is better at auto glass penetration than the 45. But with proper expanding personal defense rounds I really think the over penetration issue a moot point. Once it fully expands, regardless of caliber, even if it goes thru the perp, it isnt going to have enough remaining energy to be of concern.

 

[Theohazard]

Good defense rounds should not 'fragment', only expand.

Good handgun rounds shouldn't fragment. And that's why handgun rounds -- even JHPs -- tend to penetrate like crazy through building materials like drywall. Using a handgun for home defense because you're worried about over-penetration through walls is the completely wrong approach.

However, good defensive rifle rounds like a .223 JHP tend to fragment violently in both flesh and drywall, dumping energy quickly and reducing over-penetration. That's why a .223 is the best defensive weapon to use if you want to minimize the potential for collateral damage.

But with proper expanding personal defense rounds I really think the over penetration issue a moot point. Once it fully expands, regardless of caliber, even if it goes thru the perp, it isnt going to have enough remaining energy to be of concern.

But if a defensive handgun round doesn't hit the perp, it probably won't expand in most building materials, and certainly not in drywall. So, in that case it will keep going and going until it either eventually runs out of energy or hits something more solid. And considering there are often a lot of misses in many documented shootings, that's something to consider.

 

[SPEMack618]

I preach to anyone that listens when talking about home defense that it just wouldn't do to to successfully defend the old home stead, but in the process, through over penetration take out a niece/nephew/grandkid/LadyFriend/dog/the friendly lady next door with too many cats.

 

[FITASC]

Wives and guns - read www.corneredcat.com by our Pax.

Surprised this didn't get mentioned until the 39th post.

This should be required reading for any male wanting to make his other half's gun decision for her. Excellent info for both of you.

 

[8MM Mauser]

I guess the question would be, would it still be a wise decision to trade the shotgun for a pistol that I will carry? I'm sure I'll get her to shoot the pistol and she may love it, but that's not exactly the point I'm driving at. If she won't shoot the shotgun and we can both efficiently handle the rifle, would it still be a bad decision to let the shotgun go? Or would it be better to have 3 things that go bang in the night? My personal opinion even though I'm an avid gun lover is that if it won't be used, then why have it?

trade it and get what you want.

It's just metal and steel. It isn't like Beretta is going to stop making Shotguns anytime soon (over 500 years and counting). Sell or trade it for a handgun that actually fits your needs.

I was once of the school that anything less than a long gun was stupid for HD. I no longer hold that view. I can grab and deploy a pistol much faster than a shotgun and put many more rounds downrange at a faster pace, especially if reloads become an issue. Don't even get me started on trying to maneuver around my house with even an 18" barreled shotgun.

Get yourself a pistol and carry it. It sounds like that is what you really want to do anyway; and your wife will be fine with the rifle. People disparage .22 and it wouldn't be my first choice for self-defense either but as the saying goes "a hit with a .22LR is better than a miss with a .50BMG."

 

[idek]

I admit I did not read every other response word for word, but I wanted to chime in on .22lr for defense. I'm not trying to convince anyone that .22 is great for defense, but I just want to share my thoughts on ammo selection if I were to rely on a .22 (which I don't).

I often see suggestions for using the fastest 30 or 32 grain hollow-points in regard to .22lr and defense. I realize these probably give the most impressive energy numbers, but they tend to have very poor penetration out of a rifle, because they expand way too quickly and break apart.

Shooting in water jugs isn't the end-all be-all test of ammo effectiveness, but it can give some indications of how a bullet will behave when it hits a living thing made up of mostly water (including people). Shoot a CCI Stinger or Aguila Supermax into a row of gallon jugs of water, and they will often break up without exiting even the first jug (they penetrate a little better out of pistols since they don't expand as quickly). At close range from a rifle, even CCI's 36gr Mini-Mag HPs will fragment, though at least one piece remains a bit larger.

My preference (if I had to use my Ruger 10/22 for defense purposes) would be the CCI Velocitors. They're as heavy as CCI Mini-Mag solid points (40 gr) but faster. They have a shallow hollow point that yields a sort of controlled expansion (CCI's own description says the bullet is "derived from Speer® Gold Dot® technology"). I've recovered bullets that expanded to .33-.34" and retained nearly all their mass. These penetrate 3 or 4 jugs. Mini-Mag solids penetrate even deeper, but they tend to veer off course whereas the velocitors offer more straight-line penetration. Also, the Mini-Mag solids don't expand at all.

Videos of ballistic gel tests are also out there for various 22lr cartridges, but many of them use a pistol instead of a rifle, which can significantly alter the results.

Finally, I know .22lr ammo has the reputation for failures to fire, but that probably stems more from the cheap bulk stuff. I personally have never had a misfire (or failure to feed or extract) when using quality CCI ammo.

 

[shaunpain]

I think that while I don't believe you should table the thought of purchasing a handgun, I don't think you should sell your shotgun. Not everyone is going to be confident with a shotgun, and your wife could have had a bad experience (and didn't tell you) the time(s) you instructed her how to shoot it. A very common perception of a new shooter with a big, scary gun is to hold it as loosely against their body as possible because of the fear of recoil. Needless to say, when the shotgun roars to life you get a pretty nasty smack in the soft bits if you aren't holding on as tight as possible.

The handgun, like many posters have said, is a very difficult platform to master in comparison and if your wife has little or no interest in learning the shotgun she may find the handgun far more frustrating. That being said, I live in a large and heavily populated city in an apartment and a shotgun is not preferable in my situation. In a life or death situation requiring a heavy workload in close quarters makes a full size semi-automatic pistol the best tool in my situation, giving me full use of my support hand which I anticipate will be occupied with other things.

My opinion? Keep the shotgun out of sight tucked away but readily accessible. Buy a handgun and learn how to use it. Accept that the handgun may be your only option when the chips are down and you are short on time. Buy a .22 trainer only if you have the disposable income. If you can only afford one acquisition at this time, get a handgun in a common self defense caliber that is readily available. I recommend a modern semi auto pistol, but many will disagree and suggest a revolver because of ease of use and reliability. The choice is ultimately up to you.

 

[FITASC]

it's just that my wife refuses to shoot it (I bought it with the thought that a 5'2" woman would be able to handle a 20 gauge, but if she hates shooting, she hates shooting.

Maybe she doesn't, maybe she hates a gun that doesn't fit her and hurts her when she shoots....................

 

[Blacksun]

My sister in law (raised with guns and shooting all of her life) was not the victim of a rape during a home invasion because she followed her training. She placed her back in a secure corner nailed the first guy twice in the chest with a .44 mag and the second guy in the liver and shoulder. While the phone call was recorded by 911. This was not a city shoot as we never live anywhere near cities. So police response time was just at 30 minutes. A third suspect was down the hall way in the master bedroom where they had entered and she fired one round through the wall of the kitchen that traveled in to the exterior wall of the master bedroom. Police found the bad guy in our barn hiding. We received the weapon back after about 9 weeks and of course no charges were filled. The bad guy in the barn did admit they knew she was home alone and that there were guns and money in the house. All three were well known meth users by the police. He refused to go in to detail about their plans for her but one of the assailants was making remarks of a sexually explicit nature while "hunting for her ". In hind sight of you ask her she will tell you her only mistake was having to move from her position of safety to reload. Now that she is of age her CCW is a Para Hawg. In 9mm. My point is and my sister in law will tell you the same thing training training training under stress not just when it's convenient but all the time. It's not enough to have a firearm no matter what it is, if you can't hit the broad side of a barn when your heart is raising and you adrenaline in dumping then you have already lost the fight.

 

[LoveMyGuns808]

Geeze Blacksun, that's crazy! I'm glad that your sister in law is safe, and even more glad that I will never find myself on the bad side of her gun ^-^

Thank you all again for the input so far. It's extremely informative, and I really appreciate all of the input thus far.

After reading all of the responses and talking things over with my wife (which I have been doing, I fully realize that making any decision for my wife thinking that only I know what to do without her input and thoughts is foolishness) I've come to the conclusion that I will hold onto the shotgun and pick up a pistol. Hopefully this means my collection will grow more rapidly!!!

With that being said, and I don't want to start a war on what's best, but does any ok ne have recommendations? I'm thinking of something along the lines of the RIA 9mm, cz p-09, or something like that

 

[Dashunde]

I'm a bit confused by the criteria in this thread...
Basically I'm understanding that she is a good shot, not afraid to shoot but does not like shooting the shotgun, correct?
Well.. who cares if she doesn't "like" to shoot the shotgun? If someone is threatening her life in her own home, I suspect she will grab that shotgun and blast away with little concern for her own comfort, and do a far better job of defending herself (and child) than she would with a pistol.

I'm fairly certain she is up to the task of getting through 10 or so practice rounds in order to be acclimated to that shotgun should she ever need to use it.
She doesn't need to enjoy it, she just needs to know it.