Opinion on Full auto firearms

Common sense regulations?

The use of machine guns in crimes were never an issue. Most of the Thompsons and BARs that made "the '20s roar" were stolen from police departments and National Guard armories.

FDR had to do something to keep the Revenue Men employed after Prohibition was repealed. The NFA wasn't about crime at all.
 
BTW - "common sense" - is a Clintonism.
Prior to Clinton, I don't recall ever hearing that in conjunction with "gun control".
"Meaningful" is another Clintonism.

Maybe Holder was right. Maybe the brainwashing he called for in 1995 did take place.
 
I WOULD LOVE A FULL AUTO MG42-22 FROM GSG. How long do you think it would take them if the law changed? WHAT FUN!
The military issues one or two in every squad.
How many squads are there? Oh yeah, THOUSANDS.
What do they put in static emplacement?
Full autos.
What is on every vehicle?
Full auto.
What about law enforcement? EVERY OSHP officer now carries a DOD loaner full auto M16. CLEO can request a number of DOD loaners equivalent to their full time staff and now most do. Many have MP5 and such they paid for in addition along with a few that were turned in over the past 50 years. I guess thats OK because I know how to find a few that aren't very well guarded if I need them.
Every organized criminal organization operating on US soil, and there are quite a few, has them.
Apparently there are a whole lot of really good uses for full auto guns.

My use is mostly tearing the ***** out of cans with a full auto MG42-22(belt fed), but there are others.
 
Last edited:
Sweet Thing asked me about this, she has never had an interest in gun until she met me. I guess it would be best to describe her as curious about them since I have such an active interest in them.

My in short form answer was that full auto stuff is a rich man's toy. You have to be able to afford one, last time I checked was when Mac 10s (cheapest point of entry into automatic firearms) were $3000 or so + the tax stamp. Then the next problem is keeping said firearm fed. It is quite fun giving a recalcitrant target a couple bursts or more. In basic training you couldn't have beat the grin off my face after I got to play with a M249.

Long form answer, and I have given bits and pieces to her already, I see no reason for the 1934 National Firearms Act to exist. The politicians at the time played semantics by claiming "It's not a ban, it's a tax." It only serves to burden law abiding citizens. Just ask the Mexican cartels how hard it is to obtain their equipment due to draconian Mexican gun laws.
 
That definition would mean that limits could be placed on the ownership of a Cival War era canon, since it is too heavy to be carried by a man... But that ownership of an advanced MANPADS could not be limited, or infringed, by the government.... MANPADS = man portable air defense systems, i.e. shoulder launched surface to air missiles. At least 7 commercial jet airliners have been attacked with MANPADS by terrorists in the last 40 years.

Key word: Terrorists. How many law abiding men/women used one for use of that nature?

I honestly can't believe the debate has been diluted to absurd statements of thinking the 2nd Amendment really includes items beyond what it says and the Founding Fathers' intent. Keep AND Bear means what it says.

Name one, ONE full auto weapon that should NOT fall under the guaranteed protection of the 2nd Amendment and a real reason why. None of this, "Well someone might not use it effectively or safely" or, "I don't think there's any use for them" bullcrap. Show me facts that back up your claim why a person that's law abiding should not be able to exercise his/her right to owning one.

Do your research. Find out what the Founding Fathers wrote about firearms ownership. Read up on how things were handled when advanced firearms of their day were invented, used and owned. Bear in mind you're reading what was new over 200 years ago and is easy to be a Monday Morning Quarterback. Rifling, repeating arms, etc didn't come into fruition until many, many years later. That stuff was radical in development. What did their descendents have to say about these God-awful newfangled inventions to firearms?

Oh, and one other thing. What is a "law abiding citizen" since a member stated it isn't in the 2nd Amendment? The laws are written as to what a man/woman is compared to a child. A law abiding citizen is such until one is convicted of a crime, yes? Well, now. Wouldn't they be in prison/jail if they're a convicted felon? If not, then fix that current law. Doesn't do a dang bit of good to add yet another law since another one isn't enforced. "What about when they get out, Shane?" So? If one does the crime, one does the time. After that, I'm in belief the person has served time and starts over in life. Don't like it? Then change/enforce the existing laws.
 
OK, you're right, you win. Screw it, nuclear weapons, kids with grenades, felons with anti-aircraft guns, it's all just fine. Those things all infringe upon the 2nd amendment. There is no such thing as "common sense regulation". :rolleyes:

Anyone willing to take such a stance has no common sense.
 
Name one, ONE full auto weapon that should NOT fall under the guaranteed protection of the 2nd Amendment and a real reason why. None of this, "Well someone might not use it effectively or safely" or, "I don't think there's any use for them" bullcrap. Show me facts that back up your claim why a person that's law abiding should not be able to exercise his/her right to owning one.

The MK19 Grenade launcher? I would feel uncomfortable if my neighbor who now uses the slight woods with no intervening crest between our places as a backstop for his rounds came by one loaded with HE rounds and started shooting it my way. Strangely I am certain he would be totally irresponsible and know he can afford one at the same time.

Facts? there are little facts to support my claims other than my observations of his behavior to date.
 
Facts? there are little facts to support my claims other than my observations of his behavior to date.

And that's the very premise of how anti-gunners think. They take that reasoning and brainwash people into thinking it's "common sense" thinking.

As concerned you should be, the basic fact of the matter is no one should be allowed to be restricted to exercise their rights guaranteed under the 2A until a crime is committed. We're back to blaming the inanimate object instead of the person. If your neighbor commits a crime, then harsh punishment should be administered under a jury of his peers, not a ban on the firearm. The anti-gunners are using the very argument you pose for AR15s.

BTW, is the MK19 a full auto weapon?
 
Yes, the MK 19 is a fully automatic 40 mm grenade launcher. It will launch about 6 rounds per second. It's pretty cool. And I am sure that is sucks to be on the receiving end.

I am only interested in an interpretation of the 2nd amendment that could reasonably be upheld in a court of law. When I read the plain clear language of the 2nd, it seems to imply no limit whatsoever. But I am not a lawyer, and smart people like Scalia have clearly stated that the states can impose limits on the RKBA. If he says so I believe him... His opinion counts for a lot, mine doesn't count for squat.

And as I have said several times above, I don't think courts would ever find that a full auto weapon is protected in the same way as a handgun is. I think that an argument could be successfully made that a semi-auto military style firearm (AR-15, AK-47, etc) with 30 round mag IS a protected weapon. I think the courts might accept that. I hope they do.

So when someone asks "should machine guns be allowed under the 2nd amendment", the question is meaningless. Should or should not is irrelevant. Machine guns are NOT currently protected, and that is unlikely to change. And we are wasting energy talking about it. We need to keep our focus on AR-15s and 30 round mags. That is the battle.
 
And that's the very premise of how anti-gunners think. They take that reasoning and brainwash people into thinking it's "common sense" thinking.

If you think that not following the rules of guns safety is cool then I will invite you over next time he is banging away in the woods.
 
OK, you're right, you win. Screw it, nuclear weapons, kids with grenades, felons with anti-aircraft guns, it's all just fine. Those things all infringe upon the 2nd amendment. There is no such thing as "common sense regulation".

Anyone willing to take such a stance has no common sense.

Again with the tired old straw man. Weapons of mass destruction and high explosives are very different things than full auto firearms and anyone who can't see that probably doesn't have much common sense (which isn't nearly as common as the name implies). As I said before, the burden of proof when restricting a right is supposed to be on the government rather than on the people. The degree of destruction, both intentional and collateral, that WMD's and high explosives cause is sufficient to outweigh the loss of liberty that prohibiting them represents. Full auto firearms, however, are not nearly as destructive and, IMHO, their prohibition does not represent a significant enough interest to public safety to justify the abridgment of rights entail with banning them.

As to felons with guns, you must remember that, in our attempt to legislate away all of our problems, we've turned a copious number of crimes into felonies and many of them have nothing to do with violence. A person convicted of income tax evasion is no less a felon than someone convicted of first degree murder, but the danger to society that those two people represent is worlds apart. In my estimation, once a person has served their sentence and paid their debt to society, their rights should be fully restored. By telling someone that, due to the crime they committed, they can never again be trusted with a firearm we are basically telling them that they are so dangerous as to be beyond rehabilitation. The way I see it, if someone is a dangerous criminal beyond rehabilitation, they should either be executed or remain locked up in prison as they have no business in society regardless of whether they have a gun or not.
 
Once again, I am not making an argument that Full auto weapons should be legal/illegal. My personal feeling on the subject is that they should be legal, but regulated more heavily than semi-auto firearms. They are, in fact, inherently more destructive than semi-auto firearms, which is why our troops tend to use select-fire/ automatic weapons. They are an entirely different class of firearms. You are free to disagree with me all you like on this topic. But please do not mix your arguments with the next, completely separate issue.

Every time a discussion begins like the OP started, people take it way too far, because they are sure that the individual's right to keep and bear arms is without any limitation whatsoever. This is incorrect, and it's not an opinion, it's a fact. None of your rights are unlimited. The freedom of speech is not unlimited. Libel is illegal. The freedom of the press is not unlimited: slander is illegal. The freedom of religion is not unlimited: human sacrifice is illegal.

Your individual rights end where another's individual rights begin. This gets complicated, but we have the legal system to sort it out. It isn't a perfect system, and you may not agree with where current firearm regulations stand, on a national, state or local level. But if the basis of your thinking is, "I was born with the right to bear arms, which is limitless, and therefore no regulation whatsoever is justifiable" you are beginning your argument from a position that is fundamentally flawed.
 
Full Auto Weapons tend to be used in vehicles and for suppression. I hear even three round burst isn't terribly popular.

My friends who were deployed said that they focused on single shot training with M16s out to 600 yards. I'm not even sure if Austin or DJ even had full auto access.
 
Webleymkv said:
As to felons with guns, you must remember that, in our attempt to legislate away all of our problems, we've turned a copious number of crimes into felonies and many of them have nothing to do with violence. A person convicted of income tax evasion is no less a felon than someone convicted of first degree murder, but the danger to society that those two people represent is worlds apart. In my estimation, once a person has served their sentence and paid their debt to society, their rights should be fully restored. By telling someone that, due to the crime they committed, they can never again be trusted with a firearm we are basically telling them that they are so dangerous as to be beyond rehabilitation. The way I see it, if someone is a dangerous criminal beyond rehabilitation, they should either be executed or remain locked up in prison as they have no business in society regardless of whether they have a gun or not.

Well, stated. Cannot agree more.

coachteet said:
Once again, I am not making an argument that Full auto weapons should be legal/illegal. My personal feeling on the subject is that they should be legal, but regulated more heavily than semi-auto firearms. They are, in fact, inherently more destructive than semi-auto firearms, which is why our troops tend to use select-fire/ automatic weapons. They are an entirely different class of firearms. You are free to disagree with me all you like on this topic. But please do not mix your arguments with the next, completely separate issue.

"Heavy regulation" is, in no small part, basically ways and means for a government to deem it to be illegal. That's a fact.

How and what makes them an entirely different class? The current Acts and laws set in place for us not to be able to own them without giving our perverbial first child?

Just what factual premises are you using as your assertion a full auto is more "destructive"?

Were you in the military as a ground pounder? Most I've come in contact with that use their M16 or variants thereof disagree with your reasoning why you think it's more destructive to use the full auto function. Do you know why select fire is a popular choice and why it's used? They sure don't use full-auto because the notion of some thinks it's more destructive.

You really think a law abiding citizen should have obstacles just because of your opinion on full auto weapons are more destructive? Tell me where in the Constitution, BOR, or the writings of the Founding Fathers claim that. I, and hope you, know there isn't any. And this is the very thinking of what anti-gunners would love to hear from us. No hard core facts to back up why a law/regulation should be in place on a law abiding citizen is what they want. It's one of the many methods used to strip away our rights.

coachteet said:
Every time a discussion begins like the OP started, people take it way too far, because they are sure that the individual's right to keep and bear arms is without any limitation whatsoever. This is incorrect, and it's not an opinion, it's a fact. None of your rights are unlimited. The freedom of speech is not unlimited. Libel is illegal. The freedom of the press is not unlimited: slander is illegal. The freedom of religion is not unlimited: human sacrifice is illegal.

Well, the Founding Fathers would certainly disagree with you since that's what is written. Plain and simple. If you can keep and BEAR a (fire)arm, then you're covered.

And, yes, your rights are unlimited....as long as you do no harm to another human being. Your very statement is doublespeak. You're using an illegal actions to justify unlimited legal actions. Talking about taking things too far.
 
Alabama Shooter said:
If you think that not following the rules of guns safety is cool then I will invite you over next time he is banging away in the woods.

Then I'd have to say, IMO, it's close to as much your fault as it is his if you do nothing to help prevent that. If he's pointing it at you or in the direction of another person, then wouldn't that be brandishing in the state of Alabama? I would have already called the proper authorities if an unsafe action is taking place. If you already have taken action as a citizen should do, then all I can say is I feel for you. I don't see where one individual's actions should strip the rights of others that would be responsible otherwise. Is that MK 19 legal to own under current law?

It goes for ANY firearm, so I don't see your argument being more valid whether it's a Ruger LCP or a grenade launcher.
 
It goes for ANY firearm, so I don't see your argument being more valid whether it's a Ruger LCP or a grenade launcher.

I know. You must have led a sheltered life. I'd really rather people not have that capability for no extra discernable freedoms. It is a risk/ reward thing. I would be all for banning the LCP too if they could take down a street of large office building with a few pulls of the trigger.

I hear stories of legal ones but I know of no owners. Getting ammo would be a nigh impossible too under current laws.
 
Automatic weapons are heavily regulated. And tracked. Registered, and taxed. Believe me, there are hoops to jump through to get and keep one legally.

This whole issue is moot as Tinner has pointed out. The media refuses to acknowledge this and reports as if it is not the case. So people think the AR 15 is a full auto.
 
Once again, I am not making an argument that Full auto weapons should be legal/illegal. My personal feeling on the subject is that they should be legal, but regulated more heavily than semi-auto firearms. They are, in fact, inherently more destructive than semi-auto firearms, which is why our troops tend to use select-fire/ automatic weapons.

They already are more heavily regulated. While not outright illegal, their regulation is so stringent that it represents a de-facto ban and that's been the intention all along. When the NFA was passed in 1934, $200 was a heck of a lot more money than it is today (adjusted for inflation, it'd be equivalent to over $3000). Furthermore, the Hughes Amendment served only to artificially inflate the price of full auto to the point that only the very wealthy could afford them. I fail to understand how being wealthy equates to a greater degree of responsibility. The manner in which many wealthy celebrities choose to behave certainly doesn't leave me with the impression that all their money makes them more responsible that I am.

Also, how exactly are full auto firearms more destructive? I can yank the trigger of most semi-auto firearms fast enough that many people would have a difficult time telling the difference between it and a full auto though any degree of accuracy goes to pot when I do so. I fail to see how a fully automatic weapon represents any greater danger of collateral damage than some idiot with one of those idiotic crank mechanisms or a rubber band used to bump fire.

Would a full auto be more destructive in the hands of a violent criminal? Perhaps but the law certainly didn't stop the North Hollywood bank robbers or any of the numerous other violent criminals that have used fully automatic weapons since 1934. As I stated earlier, the law only matters to the law abiding and a fully automatic firearm is not all that difficult to acquire through the black market or illegal fabrication. The only people that are prevented from acquiring fully automatic weapons by the NFA are people who respect the law, and they were never the problem in the first place.

Every time a discussion begins like the OP started, people take it way too far, because they are sure that the individual's right to keep and bear arms is without any limitation whatsoever. This is incorrect, and it's not an opinion, it's a fact. None of your rights are unlimited. The freedom of speech is not unlimited. Libel is illegal. The freedom of the press is not unlimited: slander is illegal. The freedom of religion is not unlimited: human sacrifice is illegal.

Your individual rights end where another's individual rights begin. This gets complicated, but we have the legal system to sort it out. It isn't a perfect system, and you may not agree with where current firearm regulations stand, on a national, state or local level. But if the basis of your thinking is, "I was born with the right to bear arms, which is limitless, and therefore no regulation whatsoever is justifiable" you are beginning your argument from a position that is fundamentally flawed.

So how would I be infringing on the rights of someone else by owning a fully automatic firearm? Unless I choose to use said gun in an unsafe, irresponsible, or criminal manner it poses no greater risk to my neighbor than a teddy bear does. The current level of regulation on fully automatic firearms punishes people not for anything they've done, but for what an extremely small percentage of the population, most of which isn't supposed to have any guns at all, might do.

As I said before, the benefit of regulation must be weighed against the amount of liberty it deprives. In my opinion, the benefit of the current regulations on fully automatic firearms is too small to justify the amount of liberty that it deprives.

As to other gun regulation, some are certainly necessary though it is regrettable that our society has made them so. While I'd like to see some changes to the definition of a prohibited person (felonies are too loose a definition due to the large number of non-violent crimes which have become classified as felonies), NICS is probably a necessary evil since our society insists on letting dangerous people who cannot be rehabilitated back on our streets. Prohibiting children (and by children I mean people under 18, not 21) from owning guns is likewise regrettable but probably necessary since so many parents are unable or, more likely, unwilling to raise their children responsibly. As I already mentioned, regulation of explosives and WMD's are necessary since their destructive ability makes it so that there is almost no way to use such "arms" in a safe and responsible manner.

Beyond that, however, I do not see justification for much more regulation. Things like fully automatic firearms, silencers/suppressors, short barrel rifles/shotguns, firearms with bore diameters larger than 50 caliber, "high capacity" magazines, "assault weapons", and the so-called "gunshow loophole" (code-word for private-party sales) do not represent a great enough threat to public safety in my estimation to justify the loss of liberty that restricting or banning them would place upon the law-abiding citizenry.
 
High grade explosives and such are where I begin to agree with one's rights infringing on another's.

High grade explosives aren't in the same category as the 2A. I'd have to agree with you on that, though.

I know. You must have led a sheltered life. I'd really rather people not have that capability for no extra discernable freedoms. It is a risk/ reward thing. I would be all for banning the LCP too if they could take down a street of large office building with a few pulls of the trigger.

Not really. Tougher than some, not as tough as others.

You sure you're not saying you'd rather give up a little freedom for a little safety?

Regardless, you're postulating IF your neighbor had a grenade launcher he'd definitely would cause grievous harm to you or others. Since I don't think high explosives should be included in ones' rights without due process and you posed that concern, that point is moot in itself.

Granted, I see your point between the destructive nature between a HE grenade and a .380ACP. I also see your point on the likelyhood of harm of said munitions are greatly different. But my point is grave consequences are in effect for that person no matter if it's a 95gr piece of lead or shrapnel.

Now, I'm at fault for digressing the thread. Future posters please help us out by focusing on the OP's intent.
 
Back
Top