silvermane_1
New member
^ well you have to consider that the most likely rifle you are going to find on a battle field today is an AK or AK variant and/or AR15/M16 or AR15/M16 variant , both predate the '60s, at least their design does.
Opinion about carcano?
- Thread starter goodolsavage
- Start date
tahunua001
New member
although you do make a good point they weren't completely unaltered. the 1891 was very long as were most rifles of the period. throughout it's service life several different models were released and older rifles modified to conform with the newer, often shorter models. this is the same process that the mosin nagant went through. also notice that they attempted to change to a more powerful caliber with the 1938(could be considered an upgrade) but got caught in the middle of a land grab war and had to switch back to the old caliber for logistical reasons.
they were never really UPGRADED, but they were UPDATED. they got new sights, new sling mounting hardware, were shortened, ETC. little changes to put it more in line with other more modern designs and keep them competitive. the Arisaka type 30 did see some small modifications to the bolt design but the M96 swede saw no modifications that the carcano did not.
the lee metford, 1888 mauser, and 1886 lebel were the last vanguards of a dieing era. they were adapting to the new technology available to them but did not have access to all of the pieces of the puzzle yet. the 1886 was the first to use smokeless powder but they were still relying on the tube fed system which made american repeaters so popular but served to damn the effectiveness of the 1886 cartridge by forcing larger bore round nose ammo. similarly the 1888 mauser was designed to compete with the french lebel and did do a pretty good job of mimicking the ballistics and even stuffed it into an enbloc but the bolt design needed working on. the brits had a backwards problem. they had the bolt figured out, they had the magazine figured out. they were just stuck with a black powder cartridge, one of the last ever produced for military before smokeless powder rendered it obsolete. the 1891 carcano ditched the tube mag, ditched the black powder and ditched slow, large bore, round nosed calibers(though they did go with small bore round nose so not a great improvement there). there was really little that they had to do to stay competitive with other rifles.
they were never really UPGRADED, but they were UPDATED. they got new sights, new sling mounting hardware, were shortened, ETC. little changes to put it more in line with other more modern designs and keep them competitive. the Arisaka type 30 did see some small modifications to the bolt design but the M96 swede saw no modifications that the carcano did not.
the lee metford, 1888 mauser, and 1886 lebel were the last vanguards of a dieing era. they were adapting to the new technology available to them but did not have access to all of the pieces of the puzzle yet. the 1886 was the first to use smokeless powder but they were still relying on the tube fed system which made american repeaters so popular but served to damn the effectiveness of the 1886 cartridge by forcing larger bore round nose ammo. similarly the 1888 mauser was designed to compete with the french lebel and did do a pretty good job of mimicking the ballistics and even stuffed it into an enbloc but the bolt design needed working on. the brits had a backwards problem. they had the bolt figured out, they had the magazine figured out. they were just stuck with a black powder cartridge, one of the last ever produced for military before smokeless powder rendered it obsolete. the 1891 carcano ditched the tube mag, ditched the black powder and ditched slow, large bore, round nosed calibers(though they did go with small bore round nose so not a great improvement there). there was really little that they had to do to stay competitive with other rifles.
goodolsavage
New member
Okay you got me there.. I was trying to get the point that the carcano and mosin was infieor to what was on the battlefeild of that time. And i was trying to compare it by saying use a gun that is infieor to today's weapons on the field.. So okay try using an original m16/ar or an sks or somthing in today's warfare.
tahunua001
New member
as I have said, the M1891 went through several reworks. the M4 of today is no different from a M24 of their day.
33 years of advancement was worked into the old designs to keep them working and competitive.
1. they were shortened to be easier to handle in more situations.
2. they had different sights.
3. they had a different stock.
the same is true for the M4 and the M16. 25 years after the M16 was adopted a shorter, more versatile carbine was adopted.
1. it has a shorter barrel
2. is has different sights.
3. it has a different stock.
any other changes that were made were part of the original stoner design and were removed by the US government to aid production and were re-added later when the changes proved problematic.
33 years of advancement was worked into the old designs to keep them working and competitive.
1. they were shortened to be easier to handle in more situations.
2. they had different sights.
3. they had a different stock.
the same is true for the M4 and the M16. 25 years after the M16 was adopted a shorter, more versatile carbine was adopted.
1. it has a shorter barrel
2. is has different sights.
3. it has a different stock.
any other changes that were made were part of the original stoner design and were removed by the US government to aid production and were re-added later when the changes proved problematic.
And the M1911 is still in production and widely regarded as THE handgun for military or self defense use.
AFAIK only the Italians and the Austro-Hungarians used the Mannlicher clip-the Austro-Hungarians and the Canadians were the only major armies to field straight pull rifles, the Ross was weighed in the balance and found wanting.
In WWI Italy suffered about 655,000 KIA out of a population of about 40 million, in WWII about 240,000 KIA out of a population of about 45 million. If the US had suffered similar losses we would have about 1 million KIA in WWI and probably about 750,000 KIA in WWII. The problem with the Italian Armed Forces was not the rank and file but the higher leadership.
AFAIK only the Italians and the Austro-Hungarians used the Mannlicher clip-the Austro-Hungarians and the Canadians were the only major armies to field straight pull rifles, the Ross was weighed in the balance and found wanting.
In WWI Italy suffered about 655,000 KIA out of a population of about 40 million, in WWII about 240,000 KIA out of a population of about 45 million. If the US had suffered similar losses we would have about 1 million KIA in WWI and probably about 750,000 KIA in WWII. The problem with the Italian Armed Forces was not the rank and file but the higher leadership.
tahunua001
New member
I believe that the swiss also fielded straight pulls
Knight cadet
New member
The 1888 commission rifle wasn't a Mauser. It was a total dead end because it shared no major features with any of Mauser's designs.
Not even close! It is a dinosaur that isn't used by any military or police force in the world without jumping through alot of hoops and getting waivers and special permission.
France, Italy, USA, Germany, Greece, Austria, There were others, but it was always a weakness in those countries' rifle's designs.
As mentioned above the Swiss (K96,1911,& 31) Also the Lee navy was a straight pull
tahunua001
New member
and what service pistol doesn't have to jump through a bunch of hoops and get special waivers to be adopted by military and police? I guess all I S&W rep has to do is hand a catalog to a police chief and they just order 75 M&P40s without a second thought? and the US military switched to the M9 without any field tests, they just decided they wanted something different that shot 9mm nato? beretta must have just been the first ones in line.
the 1911 served from 1911 to 1985, a 74 year service life which is pretty much extraordinary for any service arm. USMC has roughly 12,000 1911s for MEU use. it is anything but a dinosaur.
Magnum Wheel Man
New member
so... I didn't see any response to my post...
are the Berretta Carcano's fairly uncommon ??? mine looks very well made & is likely one of my nicest milsurps...
are the Berretta Carcano's fairly uncommon ??? mine looks very well made & is likely one of my nicest milsurps...
tahunua001
New member
I would say not. they had their hands in manufacturing every model except the 91/24 and 91/41 including the type I jap rifles. what numbers they actually manufactured I couldn't tell you but I would guess that they were one of the major manufacturers.
Yes, the Swiss had their Schmidt Rubins, though they never saw combat, the M1895 Lee-Navy had a rather short service life and was not that satisfactory.
Yes, the French used the Mannlicher system in their M1907/15/16 rifles and carbines, and adopted the Mauser style stripper clip for the MAS 1936. And I suspect many of those serving today wish they had M1911s.
Yes, the French used the Mannlicher system in their M1907/15/16 rifles and carbines, and adopted the Mauser style stripper clip for the MAS 1936. And I suspect many of those serving today wish they had M1911s.
goodolsavage
New member
goodolsavage
New member
I wouldnt say "uncommon" but not as common and yes they are built pretty good. And should shoot pretty good
goodolsavage
New member
Is millitary did do testing in the berreta 92. It was orginally just the 92f but the slide can crack causing it to fly off the gun so berreta made the 92fs and fixed the problem with slides comming off. The us millitary dont go and adopt a gun without testing.
tahunua001
New member
I was speaking facetiously and very sarcastically. the claim that the 1911 had to jump through hoops to be adopted just struck me as a little bit ignorant considering that all service arms are field tested before any large number are purchaced and adopted for general issue.
we're drifting.....
The Italians know how to make fine guns. Where they dropped the ball in WWII was making good weapons (among other things...). Carcanos are well enough made for the job they were intended to do, but not as advanced as later rifle designs.
Carcano's were the butt of the old joke, "for sale, Italian service rifle, good condition, never been fired, only dropped once..."
A serviceable rifle, actively used in combat long after its design was obsolete. (its not alone in that, by any means). Not well suited to being adapted to sporting use. As a military collectible, a good gun. For practical use today, not so much.
The Italians know how to make fine guns. Where they dropped the ball in WWII was making good weapons (among other things...). Carcanos are well enough made for the job they were intended to do, but not as advanced as later rifle designs.
Carcano's were the butt of the old joke, "for sale, Italian service rifle, good condition, never been fired, only dropped once..."
A serviceable rifle, actively used in combat long after its design was obsolete. (its not alone in that, by any means). Not well suited to being adapted to sporting use. As a military collectible, a good gun. For practical use today, not so much.
Knight cadet
New member
I think if I got a Carcano I'd want to get it chambered for a different round. Maybe .38 sp, .357, or 7.62x39. They all have the same rim diameter so the bolt wouldn't need to be machined, making it an easier conversion.
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Romeo 33 Delta
New member
Knight Cadet ... why rechamber it? Before answering, I'll admit to having done ALOT of rechambering and wildcatting ... but, why with a Carcano?
Just because you have a rim diameter matching the bolt face does not address the unique feeeding issues with a Carcano. You can't just drop a round in the chamber and slam the bolt home. You are likely to bend the extractor ... at worst you'll break it. The extractor will not ride up over the rim like you hope it will ... you need to feed from a clip or pull the bolt and hook the cartridge under the extractor and reinsert the bolt. (I've done that, it's easily done and it does work, but it may not be your cup 'o tea).
Dies (Lee), Brass (Privi), Bullets (Hornady 6.5 & Buffalo Arms 7.35), Good Loading Data (Hornady and all over the Internet) are all available and not costly. You don't reload? If you don't, that's just a cryin' shame, Dude!
44 AMP hit some great points, especially about not being praticularly suited to being sporterized: a) a 6.5mm bore that needs to see a .2675" bullet that's not available rather than our common .264" bullet which is available. b) a 7.35mm bore that wants to see a .300" bullet that's not available. c) a clip (6 round capacity) is required for feeding (many States have a 5 round limit. You can deal with this issue, but it still requires one more "jerking around" step). d) with its Mannlicher receiver, mounting a receiver sight is out of the question and the original iron sights are not calibrated for our sight picture (they bury the front sight into the bottom of the rear sight "V"). e) Mounting a scope requires an off-set mount which is "unconventional" to our way of thinking. Too many negatives when you can spend a couple of more bucks and buy a surplus Mauser and go hunting!
My 2 cents worth; buy a Carcano in 6.5 and some Privi ammo and clips and go shooting. A number of my Carcano 6.5s shoot quite well with a .264" bullet (that Hornady .264" is like their .268" ... long, parallel sides that a Carcano likes to see). If yours needs a bigger bullet ... just get into reloading. If you start with Lee equipment (Challenger press is fine) you're only looking a a couple hundred bucks. OK, that's a chunk for only one, stupid caliber ... but once you have the equipment, all you need is another Lee die set (8mm Mauser?), some Boxer brass, some more bullets, primers and powder and you're now loading for your Kar98k ... and so it goes.
Just because you have a rim diameter matching the bolt face does not address the unique feeeding issues with a Carcano. You can't just drop a round in the chamber and slam the bolt home. You are likely to bend the extractor ... at worst you'll break it. The extractor will not ride up over the rim like you hope it will ... you need to feed from a clip or pull the bolt and hook the cartridge under the extractor and reinsert the bolt. (I've done that, it's easily done and it does work, but it may not be your cup 'o tea).
Dies (Lee), Brass (Privi), Bullets (Hornady 6.5 & Buffalo Arms 7.35), Good Loading Data (Hornady and all over the Internet) are all available and not costly. You don't reload? If you don't, that's just a cryin' shame, Dude!
44 AMP hit some great points, especially about not being praticularly suited to being sporterized: a) a 6.5mm bore that needs to see a .2675" bullet that's not available rather than our common .264" bullet which is available. b) a 7.35mm bore that wants to see a .300" bullet that's not available. c) a clip (6 round capacity) is required for feeding (many States have a 5 round limit. You can deal with this issue, but it still requires one more "jerking around" step). d) with its Mannlicher receiver, mounting a receiver sight is out of the question and the original iron sights are not calibrated for our sight picture (they bury the front sight into the bottom of the rear sight "V"). e) Mounting a scope requires an off-set mount which is "unconventional" to our way of thinking. Too many negatives when you can spend a couple of more bucks and buy a surplus Mauser and go hunting!
My 2 cents worth; buy a Carcano in 6.5 and some Privi ammo and clips and go shooting. A number of my Carcano 6.5s shoot quite well with a .264" bullet (that Hornady .264" is like their .268" ... long, parallel sides that a Carcano likes to see). If yours needs a bigger bullet ... just get into reloading. If you start with Lee equipment (Challenger press is fine) you're only looking a a couple hundred bucks. OK, that's a chunk for only one, stupid caliber ... but once you have the equipment, all you need is another Lee die set (8mm Mauser?), some Boxer brass, some more bullets, primers and powder and you're now loading for your Kar98k ... and so it goes.
Knight cadet
New member
Just an idea. I am just getting started with collecting, but have access to my dad's very large collection and ammo dump. I'll probably never get a carcano except through inheritance, mostly because of the ammo issue.