I'm ccw, thats all my state allows. I'm not wanting to step on people rights, I don't want them stepping on mine. When I am away from my home , I am curious about others states and how people are. There is a difference in people from state to state, from age group to age group, from ethnicity to ethnicity. When I find people who are willing to talk about themselves and their area, I ask alot of questions. Most times people are will to talk, if you are polite and sociable. While traveling, I spent a few days in Arizona. I noticed open carry and the people reacting to it. When I had a chance i asked what they thought about open carry, some said its common and they are use to it. Some said it was people being rude. Not one said it should be against the law. My sampling was small, maybe a dozen people or so. As I said my state doesn't allow it, so I dont. Dont know if I would or not.
Open Carry: What are your thoughts?
- Thread starter hivoltagefx4
- Start date
- Status
Oh, where to start? From a "tactical" perspective, the only reason CC could be argued as better is that the bad guy may not know you are armed right away. This may be a positive, but could also very well be a negative (which I'll elaborate on later.) CC advocates always bring up how OC'ers will be immediately targeted and shot by bad guys or attacked just to get control of their gun as they were minding their own business. I'd welcome anyone to defend this claim by posting an instance where a law abiding citizen was attacked because they were carrying a gun. Frankly, this hysterical claim holds no more validity than when the Brady crowd claimed there would be blood in the streets if citizens were able to carry guns. It’s all just wildly unsupported appeals to emotion because there are no actual facts to back it up. Don't you think that if this was a common and real danger the media would be chomping at the bit to prove how carrying a gun doesn't keep you safe, but might actually even make you a better target?
Simply put, criminals are deterred by guns in the hands of citizens, not encouraged to commit even more outrageous acts of violence. No one wants to get shot, or even shot at. There was a notable interview that John Stossel conducted with imprisoned criminals convicted of violent crimes and he asked what their biggest fear was. Unanimously, the answer was a citizen with a gun, which they feared even more than the police. They knew that the police would attempt to arrest them, but they also knew that an armed citizen was going to try to kill them. An openly carried firearm is much like the sticker for the burglar alarm in your front yard. It let’s a bad guy know you are not an easy target. Why on earth would they risk personal harm when there are other far easier targets?
The following conversation is quoted from a poster on another forum, but I think it is definitely worth interjecting into this conversation, because it is an example of the criminal mentality:
1.
This brings us back to the CC “element of surprise.” When a bad guy is choosing a target, do I want to appear dangerous to him, or do I want to look like just another sheep, albeit one with teeth he can’t see? It’s my opinion that it’s better to have the bad guy give me the once over, see my gun and pick an easier target, than for him to see no gun and attempt an attack, even if I am carrying. If I’m attacked, I’ve already lost the advantage because the bad guy is the one acting and I’m left reacting. He’s already several steps ahead of me, so to speak. I can’t speak for anyone else here, but I hope I never have to actually use my weapon in self defense, and if I find myself in a situation where I need to draw, I’ve already failed to control the situation. I’m not looking to play “bait” by appearing less deadly than I am.
From a "political" perspective, there are many things that might be considered unsettling to certain people. That doesn't mean that their discomfort allows them to dictate my rights. Frankly, there's no reason a person should ever be prohibited from openly carrying a firearm in a responsible manner.
Would you rather people be blissfully unaware of the guns they are surrounded by and can’t see... or live in abject terror of the ones they can? Either way, you're advocating ignorance as a solution.
Basically, the “fear” of open carry isn't going to be fixed by limiting people’s right to defend themselves but instead by helping those who are afraid overcome those irrational fears through education and promote increased tolerance through greater exposure.
Despite horrible things that have been said, no one is afraid of their right to Free Speech. Despite atrocities in the name of various gods, no one is afraid of their right to Freedom of Religion. This is no different.
You “CC only” people may want to thank the OC movement. In many cases it’s OC’ers who are responsible for fighting for your rights to protect yourself and your families. OC is the face of the Gun-Rights movement as a whole, while most CC’ers are happy as long as the government isn't bothering them personally.
I do have a permit to carry concealed, and I do CC on occasion, depending on where I’m going and what I’m doing. I will CC when going to crowded public places or out with friends who may not be as Pro-2A as I am, but going to the supermarket, grabbing a quick bite to eat or running other various errands around town is something I comfortably doing while OC. I have two small children and I’m often holding one of them in my arms when I walk outside the house. It’s far easier to draw with one hand from an OWB holster than to try to lift/move a cover garment and draw with the same single hand. I've also had quite few positive conversations with other citizens, where I got to explain why I might feel a need to carry a handgun and what the various laws are in my state that were only sparked by the fact that the other person noticed I was carrying. To date, I’ve never had a negative carry encounter.
My bottom line is that, to each their own. Not all people who refuse to OC are “cowards” or “afraid of being harassed” just like not all people who choose to OC are “clowns” or “out for attention.” We’re all part of the same community.
Simply put, criminals are deterred by guns in the hands of citizens, not encouraged to commit even more outrageous acts of violence. No one wants to get shot, or even shot at. There was a notable interview that John Stossel conducted with imprisoned criminals convicted of violent crimes and he asked what their biggest fear was. Unanimously, the answer was a citizen with a gun, which they feared even more than the police. They knew that the police would attempt to arrest them, but they also knew that an armed citizen was going to try to kill them. An openly carried firearm is much like the sticker for the burglar alarm in your front yard. It let’s a bad guy know you are not an easy target. Why on earth would they risk personal harm when there are other far easier targets?
The following conversation is quoted from a poster on another forum, but I think it is definitely worth interjecting into this conversation, because it is an example of the criminal mentality:
1.
This brings us back to the CC “element of surprise.” When a bad guy is choosing a target, do I want to appear dangerous to him, or do I want to look like just another sheep, albeit one with teeth he can’t see? It’s my opinion that it’s better to have the bad guy give me the once over, see my gun and pick an easier target, than for him to see no gun and attempt an attack, even if I am carrying. If I’m attacked, I’ve already lost the advantage because the bad guy is the one acting and I’m left reacting. He’s already several steps ahead of me, so to speak. I can’t speak for anyone else here, but I hope I never have to actually use my weapon in self defense, and if I find myself in a situation where I need to draw, I’ve already failed to control the situation. I’m not looking to play “bait” by appearing less deadly than I am.
From a "political" perspective, there are many things that might be considered unsettling to certain people. That doesn't mean that their discomfort allows them to dictate my rights. Frankly, there's no reason a person should ever be prohibited from openly carrying a firearm in a responsible manner.
Would you rather people be blissfully unaware of the guns they are surrounded by and can’t see... or live in abject terror of the ones they can? Either way, you're advocating ignorance as a solution.
Basically, the “fear” of open carry isn't going to be fixed by limiting people’s right to defend themselves but instead by helping those who are afraid overcome those irrational fears through education and promote increased tolerance through greater exposure.
Despite horrible things that have been said, no one is afraid of their right to Free Speech. Despite atrocities in the name of various gods, no one is afraid of their right to Freedom of Religion. This is no different.
You “CC only” people may want to thank the OC movement. In many cases it’s OC’ers who are responsible for fighting for your rights to protect yourself and your families. OC is the face of the Gun-Rights movement as a whole, while most CC’ers are happy as long as the government isn't bothering them personally.
I do have a permit to carry concealed, and I do CC on occasion, depending on where I’m going and what I’m doing. I will CC when going to crowded public places or out with friends who may not be as Pro-2A as I am, but going to the supermarket, grabbing a quick bite to eat or running other various errands around town is something I comfortably doing while OC. I have two small children and I’m often holding one of them in my arms when I walk outside the house. It’s far easier to draw with one hand from an OWB holster than to try to lift/move a cover garment and draw with the same single hand. I've also had quite few positive conversations with other citizens, where I got to explain why I might feel a need to carry a handgun and what the various laws are in my state that were only sparked by the fact that the other person noticed I was carrying. To date, I’ve never had a negative carry encounter.
My bottom line is that, to each their own. Not all people who refuse to OC are “cowards” or “afraid of being harassed” just like not all people who choose to OC are “clowns” or “out for attention.” We’re all part of the same community.
youngunz4life
New member
I CCW but am pro OC
I'll wear an outrageous outfit and a gun on each side. I don't give a rats behind what any of you think about it. If and when I choose to OC you'll just have to deal with it because I don't do anything illegal.
I'll wear an outrageous outfit and a gun on each side. I don't give a rats behind what any of you think about it. If and when I choose to OC you'll just have to deal with it because I don't do anything illegal.
youngunz, That is exactly the attitude that will lead to the voting in of politicians who will do something about it and that will be the death knell of open carry in a few states. ask the people in california who now cant even open carry an unloaded gun because of the in your face manufactured confrontations that open carry zealots precipitated.
Polynikes on the other hand has presented a thought out post that invites the reader to consider another point of view on open carry and to perhaps re examine their own assumptions about open carry.
Polynikes on the other hand has presented a thought out post that invites the reader to consider another point of view on open carry and to perhaps re examine their own assumptions about open carry.
Agreed. Those two posts showed the extreme poles of the movement. Unfortunately, it's the latter that'll make the biggest splash and get noticed, thus drowning out Polynikes' more rational and reasoned approach.
However, he does fall into a common rhetorical pit:
I've been active since long before there was even a term for open carry, and long before it was considered a tool for advocacy. 1989, in fact. Many of us have. We're the ones in the background rolling up our sleeves and donating our money, time, and effort to do the stuff that wouldn't look the least bit dramatic on YouTube.
In contrast, many of the open carry types of Youngunz' stripe can't even name their own congressman. Yet, his acquaintances will claim that he does more for the 2nd Amendment than I do. Yeesh.
For example, California has a very effective and very active advocacy group called the CalGuns Foundation. They get things done. When open carriers started flocking in groups to public places in urban areas, the leadership at CalGuns asked them not to do so. The open carriers thumbed their noses at them and continued. We all know the result.
As it turns out, there is almost no overlap between the two groups. In fact, the leadership of CalGuns has mentioned that the only time they hear from the open carry crowd is when one of them gets in trouble and expects legal representation.
However, he does fall into a common rhetorical pit:
The implication is that those of us who don't open carry somehow don't contribute, or don't contribute as much to 2nd Amendment advocacy.
I've been active since long before there was even a term for open carry, and long before it was considered a tool for advocacy. 1989, in fact. Many of us have. We're the ones in the background rolling up our sleeves and donating our money, time, and effort to do the stuff that wouldn't look the least bit dramatic on YouTube.
In contrast, many of the open carry types of Youngunz' stripe can't even name their own congressman. Yet, his acquaintances will claim that he does more for the 2nd Amendment than I do. Yeesh.
For example, California has a very effective and very active advocacy group called the CalGuns Foundation. They get things done. When open carriers started flocking in groups to public places in urban areas, the leadership at CalGuns asked them not to do so. The open carriers thumbed their noses at them and continued. We all know the result.
As it turns out, there is almost no overlap between the two groups. In fact, the leadership of CalGuns has mentioned that the only time they hear from the open carry crowd is when one of them gets in trouble and expects legal representation.
Skadoosh wrote:
You'd be wrong in your disagreement.
OC'ers in Ohio used a series of Open Carry "Defense Walks" to raise public awareness and ultimately get CC signed into law so that those of you who won't OC could protect yourself and your loved ones.
Two citizens in Utah had a local newspaper take their picture standing next to a sign prohibiting firearms at Salt Lake City International Airport. The signs are preempted by state law and therefore not legal. Several weeks later, the city removed the signs.
Furthermore, rather than OC leading to more oppressive gun laws, since 2009 multiple states have been working to make open carry legal and repeal existing bans.
These are just a few examples to disprove your statement. Suits filed by OC'ers in multiple states have reaffirmed Constitutional 2nd and 4th Amendment rights on multiple occasions, guaranteeing better education for law enforcement on the legality of carrying firearms and saving other citizens from similar harassment.
So...you're welcome.
...and Tom Servo, I didn't lump ALL CC'ers in that statement. I very specifically said "most" and I stand by that statement. Many CC'ers are loathe to make any waves at all in their communities for fear that they will lose even more rights and are just happy that their state has "allowed" them to quietly carry hidden handguns, rather than pushing for a true Constitutional interpretation of the 2nd. My CCW instructor way back when I got my permit tried to paint OC as something that would get you in trouble and cause a commotion, and in my state, that's not the case at all. Some do get out and pull their own weight, though.
You'd be wrong in your disagreement.
OC'ers in Ohio used a series of Open Carry "Defense Walks" to raise public awareness and ultimately get CC signed into law so that those of you who won't OC could protect yourself and your loved ones.
Two citizens in Utah had a local newspaper take their picture standing next to a sign prohibiting firearms at Salt Lake City International Airport. The signs are preempted by state law and therefore not legal. Several weeks later, the city removed the signs.
Furthermore, rather than OC leading to more oppressive gun laws, since 2009 multiple states have been working to make open carry legal and repeal existing bans.
These are just a few examples to disprove your statement. Suits filed by OC'ers in multiple states have reaffirmed Constitutional 2nd and 4th Amendment rights on multiple occasions, guaranteeing better education for law enforcement on the legality of carrying firearms and saving other citizens from similar harassment.
So...you're welcome.
...and Tom Servo, I didn't lump ALL CC'ers in that statement. I very specifically said "most" and I stand by that statement. Many CC'ers are loathe to make any waves at all in their communities for fear that they will lose even more rights and are just happy that their state has "allowed" them to quietly carry hidden handguns, rather than pushing for a true Constitutional interpretation of the 2nd. My CCW instructor way back when I got my permit tried to paint OC as something that would get you in trouble and cause a commotion, and in my state, that's not the case at all. Some do get out and pull their own weight, though.
Last edited:
Without some sort of citation, I'd have to interpret that as stereotyping. There are many people (some on this very forum) who've made real, tangible changes on behalf of the 2nd Amendment who aren't open carry advocates. I'll let them chime in on their own behalf.
Myself? I've lobbied in two states for repeal of restrictive carry laws. I've organized NRA events. I've logged over 200 hours of pro bono instruction for new shooters. I was working phone banks for the NRA in 1989 in opposition of the import ban. I participated in televised debates in opposition of the Assault Weapons Ban in 1993.
How do you think most states came to "allow" carry in the first place? People were "making waves" long before open carry became the hip thing.
If the open carry community wants the rest of us to give them some credibility, claiming that the rest of us are ineffectual fence-sitters isn't the way to go about it.
Fair enough, and I certainly don't call your contributions into question, but to be fair, open carry is not a new phenomenon. In fact, it predates Concealed Carry Permits by quite a ways. Gun control really only began with the Sullivan Act in 1911. In the late 1800's openly carried firearms were common in every state in the country. Fear of open carry and firearms in general has only been bred into Americans in the last 100 years...but you know that, right?
youngunz4life
New member
In all fairness Tom, you have already admitted to stereotyping. I am glad you did that, and that is why I didn't respond to it because I was thinking it was a blatant stereotype before you admitted to it in writing during an earlier post while I was reading it.
At best, that post was no better than mine. heyjoe did make a good point, but basically the point I was trying to convey is: "I really don't care that this thread is full of people who are against OC in some form or another. You all have no control over the choices I make in my life, I really can care less if you don't like OCing, and plenty of other threads probably are pro-OC. This one might just be a coincidence."
I can add a little more now. Many people on this thread do not appreciate the time, effort, and dedication many OCers DO put into the 2nd Amendment and the gun rights of all Americans. We need to at least be fair to them and recognize this. I have always given that respect, and I have never OCed off of my property. Not all OCers are seeking attention, and not all of them are problem childs; they are living their life and have decided for whatever reason to OC(WHICH IS THEIR RIGHT). All the best, and the intention of this post isn't to create conflict - I am just stating some opinions(we all know how valuable opinions are)
.
At best, that post was no better than mine. heyjoe did make a good point, but basically the point I was trying to convey is: "I really don't care that this thread is full of people who are against OC in some form or another. You all have no control over the choices I make in my life, I really can care less if you don't like OCing, and plenty of other threads probably are pro-OC. This one might just be a coincidence."
I can add a little more now. Many people on this thread do not appreciate the time, effort, and dedication many OCers DO put into the 2nd Amendment and the gun rights of all Americans. We need to at least be fair to them and recognize this. I have always given that respect, and I have never OCed off of my property. Not all OCers are seeking attention, and not all of them are problem childs; they are living their life and have decided for whatever reason to OC(WHICH IS THEIR RIGHT). All the best, and the intention of this post isn't to create conflict - I am just stating some opinions(we all know how valuable opinions are)
.
Last edited:
I don't want the guy in the dirty sweat pants and trucker hat at the Walmart with his gun on his hip to make a statement for me about my gun rights either. In fact I'll be keeping my eye on him. There's other ways to help the cause than flaunting your sidearm about town for every soccer mom to get nervous about.
I was, but I was stereotyping a minority of the open carry community (and a minority that seems to enjoy making a caricature of themselves). I haven't implied that all, or most, or even a sizable percentage of those who open carry are problematic. But even if the percentage of attention-seekers is in the single digits, their behavior is enough to cast a dim light on the whole shebang.
Those folks, who I agree are likely the majority, are not the ones with whom I take issue. I've known people all my life who just happen to carry openly. They've got the presence of mind not to go around baiting cops into confrontations, or going armed in pseudo-military gear to public rallies. They know as well as I do that those things don't help us.
At some point, someone got the idea of making the practice a movement. That might have gone well (and might still), except like all movements, it got co-opted by an extreme element. That's what concerns me.
lambertsteeth
New member
I consider it somewhat unnecessary.
Similar to wearing assless chaps in public.
Similar to wearing assless chaps in public.
youngunz4life
New member
ok I can appreciate that Tom. Thanks for clarifying, and sorry if I misunderstood.
However, BUFF, you probably just described an off-duty cop and at least remotely possibly an undercover one on duty.
You can't go around judging a book by its cover. The clean cut guy might be a scumbag. I see nothing wrong with the retirement Hawaii shirt or the trucker hat(notice I left out the dirty sweats
). I actually want to get the Hawaii shirt or a slight variable.
However, BUFF, you probably just described an off-duty cop and at least remotely possibly an undercover one on duty.
You can't go around judging a book by its cover. The clean cut guy might be a scumbag. I see nothing wrong with the retirement Hawaii shirt or the trucker hat(notice I left out the dirty sweats
). I actually want to get the Hawaii shirt or a slight variable.I happen to own Hawaiin shirts and a trucker hat. Got the hat at a Nascar race too.
An undercover cop with a gun on his hip is not very undercover. I'm just saying please be a good representative to the gun enthusiast community. I have no problem with open carry, if it is designed for accidental flashing of your gun. Or if you want to walk around with your "shooting iron" out for everyone to see, great. But don't say it's for my benefit and you're fighting for my rights. Just makes you look like the proverbial "gun nut" that everyone is unjustifiably afraid of. This ain't the wild west and Wyatt Earp is dead. Cover it up.
An undercover cop with a gun on his hip is not very undercover. I'm just saying please be a good representative to the gun enthusiast community. I have no problem with open carry, if it is designed for accidental flashing of your gun. Or if you want to walk around with your "shooting iron" out for everyone to see, great. But don't say it's for my benefit and you're fighting for my rights. Just makes you look like the proverbial "gun nut" that everyone is unjustifiably afraid of. This ain't the wild west and Wyatt Earp is dead. Cover it up.
The "Wild" West had nothing on the crime and violence we see today. Why should law abiding citizens today appear less dangerous when the threats are far greater? Your glib rhetoric need not be exercised further, BUFF. I've given evidence to support my position. Do you at any point plan on doing the same?
heyjoe, I've seen that one before, in fact, it's the only one I've seen, but the problem is that there's no detail on the circumstances of the robbery and there's no evidence that the man was targetted specifically because he was carrying or that he would've been left alone if he'd been CC. Now, that example is the best you have? ...and did you notice how many other people the video said carry OC in that state, yet this a "first" according to the reporters? That's not exactly a resounding blow for the "OC makes you a target" crowd.
- Status