Uncle Billy
New member
Thanks, Antipitas.
I don't either. I'm not saying that OC = bad guy. I'm saying that OC = something dangerous nearby; good sense and self-preservation require I pay attention to whose OCing because it really matters whether the person OCing is a good guy or a bad guy, AND ALSO whether he or she knows what they're doing with a gun- under what circumstances will they take the gun out and use it, how expert are they at judging situations vis-a-vis inserting a gun into it, can they shoot straight enough to miss me and my family. Anyone with a gun warrants that scrutiny because guns can kill people and everyone knows it. But not everyone wants to deal with that or even recognize all the things that have just become important when an OCer comes near- even life or death for them- they just have a sense that the presence of a gun near them has profound implications and 99% of those implications bode ill for the observer if the OCer isn't all the way up to competent with a gun in public situations. In some places there's no proof or requirement that OCers be so which adds to the doubt.
I go on alert and assess the situation around us, and plan contingency tactics because that's my nature and what my training and experience have taught me, and I'm familiar with guns and in favor of our gun rights. Someone who isn't in favor of gun rights or hasn't thought about it before, in the presence of someone OCing, is apt to have a fear reaction and/or a negative reaction- "get those guns away from me, they make me nervous!" because of all the factors a nearby gun brings with it, and they become actively engaged in reducing their discomfort with a lot of guns nearby. OCing has the potential to take someone otherwise and previously uninvolved with guns because they never had to deal with them, and turn them into antis when all at once guns in the hands of unknown strangers has put guns and all that comes with them "right in their face" against their wishes.
That's naive in the extreme- I hate "what-ifs" because they are specific about events and there's a million such specificities. But here's one anyway- if someone wanted to shoot up a Starbucks, would they only do so by rushing into the place in a flurry and start shooting? Nope, they might just come in like any average customer, get in line for their latte frappochino como-se-chaima, setting everyone at ease that they're just another customer (that's the reaction the OC missionaries expect to generate) thereby insuring themselves of a lot of easy targets, and while waiting, take out the Glock and start in. But you, having seen them to be behaving in a manner you judge to be "appropriate", and anyone else that has "learned the lesson" of the OC mission, have turned their attention from them, regarding them as just an everyday person. I will not have turned away from them- upon seeing the gun I will have spotted a table I could overturn to hide behind or some other easily accessible shelter, or the door, and if I have my CC Walther or my Beretta aboard I will have thought of how it could be brought into some useful service should things go bad- it's called "staying ahead of the situation" and it's a valuable part of tactics when the excrement hits the fan. Others in Starbucks who have no direct experience with guns, see the OCer, have an untrained, inexperienced reaction to the gun and become afraid that a potential shooting event just showed up- "why would anyone carry a gun so obviously unless they intended to use it, either as the first cause, or in some reaction not certain to be appropriate, as a response?" I have no other way I'm comfortable with when a gun shows up at Starbucks, or any other such otherwise non-gun place; many don't or won't want to have to have any reaction at all.
Because in the absence of any evidence otherwise, and in a place where training and experience aren't required to OC, there's a great possibility (not a certainty, a possibility- as I said, this isn't a binary situation, it is nuanced through and through) that that's just what they are. And even with all the credentials, a lot of non-gun or anti-gun people have applied the "cowboy" tag anyway to OCing and resent that they've been brought to the Deadwood Saloon, because that's where they learned what they think they know about openly carried guns.
CC guns, when done right, cause no such reaction in public places from anybody- no one has to react to an armed person because no one sees anyone to be armed. The whole issue doesn't come up and so no negative feelings, no fears, no uneasiness with privately owned handguns, no doubts about 2A rights get brought forth. Anyone truly interested in preserving gun rights and really interested in having the general public be at least indifferent to guns ought to see that OC has the potential to damage both of those. If, on the other hand, jamming gun rights "in the face" of those who didn't ask for it are the intentions and negative public relations are okay in order to achieve that, then OCing serves the antis better than it serve the "pros".
If one's whole reason for OCing is "look at me, I'm armed and so deal with things at a life-or-death level all the time so I'm significant, I'm a SOMEbody!", and that fills missing things in one's self-image- it's a mating display meant to attract potential "mates" with a display of power under one's control which meets a missing sense of macho or power or virility or maturity- in short, it'a all about advertising and nothing else, then that's a huge and irresponsible use of our gun rights. When someone wearing a gun only as jewellery gets into a situation where what the gun really is- a device for killing- gets brought into play, the check written by using the gun only as an article of clothing gets cashed, and God help anyone within range.
Right, and alerting to that possibility prudently comes with the presence of a gun and a lack of unwarranted confidence in strangers. When I'm at the range I'm depending on the discipline and mental state of those who are there shooting, and there's some risk that such confidence is misplaced. I'm prepared to take that risk if necessary, but most often conspire to go to the range when the fewest number of others are there. Someone who hasn't any experience with guns, has a generally fearful reaction to them and hasn't chosen to go among armed people as I have when I go to the range, might easily be made uncomfortable with that risk, uneasy that they've been forced to have that confidence in a stranger whose talents with a personal firearm are unknown when someone OCing shows up where they are in public. They could easily "jump off the fence" to the side of being vocal antis so as to remove that intrusion on their sense of safety and comfort.
Right, but the presence of a gun brings with it a whole lot more and stringent criteria for such a judgment. Assuming benevolence on the part of an OCer is "jumping to conclusions" and is particularly ill advised since they clearly have the power of life and death at hand.
Okay, tell that to those who are intimidated by an OC gun at the mall or in line at McDonald's. I'm sure that will make them supporters of OC.
I entirely agree
Webleymkv said:
I don't either. I'm not saying that OC = bad guy. I'm saying that OC = something dangerous nearby; good sense and self-preservation require I pay attention to whose OCing because it really matters whether the person OCing is a good guy or a bad guy, AND ALSO whether he or she knows what they're doing with a gun- under what circumstances will they take the gun out and use it, how expert are they at judging situations vis-a-vis inserting a gun into it, can they shoot straight enough to miss me and my family. Anyone with a gun warrants that scrutiny because guns can kill people and everyone knows it. But not everyone wants to deal with that or even recognize all the things that have just become important when an OCer comes near- even life or death for them- they just have a sense that the presence of a gun near them has profound implications and 99% of those implications bode ill for the observer if the OCer isn't all the way up to competent with a gun in public situations. In some places there's no proof or requirement that OCers be so which adds to the doubt.
I go on alert and assess the situation around us, and plan contingency tactics because that's my nature and what my training and experience have taught me, and I'm familiar with guns and in favor of our gun rights. Someone who isn't in favor of gun rights or hasn't thought about it before, in the presence of someone OCing, is apt to have a fear reaction and/or a negative reaction- "get those guns away from me, they make me nervous!" because of all the factors a nearby gun brings with it, and they become actively engaged in reducing their discomfort with a lot of guns nearby. OCing has the potential to take someone otherwise and previously uninvolved with guns because they never had to deal with them, and turn them into antis when all at once guns in the hands of unknown strangers has put guns and all that comes with them "right in their face" against their wishes.
That's naive in the extreme- I hate "what-ifs" because they are specific about events and there's a million such specificities. But here's one anyway- if someone wanted to shoot up a Starbucks, would they only do so by rushing into the place in a flurry and start shooting? Nope, they might just come in like any average customer, get in line for their latte frappochino como-se-chaima, setting everyone at ease that they're just another customer (that's the reaction the OC missionaries expect to generate) thereby insuring themselves of a lot of easy targets, and while waiting, take out the Glock and start in. But you, having seen them to be behaving in a manner you judge to be "appropriate", and anyone else that has "learned the lesson" of the OC mission, have turned their attention from them, regarding them as just an everyday person. I will not have turned away from them- upon seeing the gun I will have spotted a table I could overturn to hide behind or some other easily accessible shelter, or the door, and if I have my CC Walther or my Beretta aboard I will have thought of how it could be brought into some useful service should things go bad- it's called "staying ahead of the situation" and it's a valuable part of tactics when the excrement hits the fan. Others in Starbucks who have no direct experience with guns, see the OCer, have an untrained, inexperienced reaction to the gun and become afraid that a potential shooting event just showed up- "why would anyone carry a gun so obviously unless they intended to use it, either as the first cause, or in some reaction not certain to be appropriate, as a response?" I have no other way I'm comfortable with when a gun shows up at Starbucks, or any other such otherwise non-gun place; many don't or won't want to have to have any reaction at all.
Because in the absence of any evidence otherwise, and in a place where training and experience aren't required to OC, there's a great possibility (not a certainty, a possibility- as I said, this isn't a binary situation, it is nuanced through and through) that that's just what they are. And even with all the credentials, a lot of non-gun or anti-gun people have applied the "cowboy" tag anyway to OCing and resent that they've been brought to the Deadwood Saloon, because that's where they learned what they think they know about openly carried guns.
CC guns, when done right, cause no such reaction in public places from anybody- no one has to react to an armed person because no one sees anyone to be armed. The whole issue doesn't come up and so no negative feelings, no fears, no uneasiness with privately owned handguns, no doubts about 2A rights get brought forth. Anyone truly interested in preserving gun rights and really interested in having the general public be at least indifferent to guns ought to see that OC has the potential to damage both of those. If, on the other hand, jamming gun rights "in the face" of those who didn't ask for it are the intentions and negative public relations are okay in order to achieve that, then OCing serves the antis better than it serve the "pros".
If one's whole reason for OCing is "look at me, I'm armed and so deal with things at a life-or-death level all the time so I'm significant, I'm a SOMEbody!", and that fills missing things in one's self-image- it's a mating display meant to attract potential "mates" with a display of power under one's control which meets a missing sense of macho or power or virility or maturity- in short, it'a all about advertising and nothing else, then that's a huge and irresponsible use of our gun rights. When someone wearing a gun only as jewellery gets into a situation where what the gun really is- a device for killing- gets brought into play, the check written by using the gun only as an article of clothing gets cashed, and God help anyone within range.
Right, and alerting to that possibility prudently comes with the presence of a gun and a lack of unwarranted confidence in strangers. When I'm at the range I'm depending on the discipline and mental state of those who are there shooting, and there's some risk that such confidence is misplaced. I'm prepared to take that risk if necessary, but most often conspire to go to the range when the fewest number of others are there. Someone who hasn't any experience with guns, has a generally fearful reaction to them and hasn't chosen to go among armed people as I have when I go to the range, might easily be made uncomfortable with that risk, uneasy that they've been forced to have that confidence in a stranger whose talents with a personal firearm are unknown when someone OCing shows up where they are in public. They could easily "jump off the fence" to the side of being vocal antis so as to remove that intrusion on their sense of safety and comfort.
Right, but the presence of a gun brings with it a whole lot more and stringent criteria for such a judgment. Assuming benevolence on the part of an OCer is "jumping to conclusions" and is particularly ill advised since they clearly have the power of life and death at hand.
Okay, tell that to those who are intimidated by an OC gun at the mall or in line at McDonald's. I'm sure that will make them supporters of OC.
Olibobwa said:
I entirely agree
