Open Bolt

My fault for mentioning the Thompson which is .45. Brain fart!

In decades after WW2, runaway gun phenomenon have happened MANY times, and as you say, it´s due to mixing MP-ammo, who often weren´t properly marked. Yeah, it´s a European problem, though I guess you can invoke the same problem with any open-bolt gun.
 
I have heard a lot about German special 9mm for SMGs but have never seen any, and AFAIK there was no such thing. It is all marked as Pistolenpatronen 08 and, except for some special rounds for use with silencers all ball and tracer rounds, including those with sintered iron bullets, were specifically designated in German army bulletins as being suitable for P.08 and P.38 pistols and MP.18, MP.38 and MP.40 submachine guns.

Rumors for some time were that the common Patronen 08 with sintered iron bullet and a black band at the case mouth were for SMGs, but they were simply tropic pack; the band was a sealant to prevent entrance of moisture. (The U.S. did the same thing, but put the sealant inside.) I fired many of those rounds in both P.38's and Lugers, with no problems.

There was a directive that some steel case ammunition was not to be used in the P.08 (Luger), but that was because of problems with obturation in the stepped Luger chamber; there was no problem with the P.38 or the SMGs.

Jim
 
Don't know about German SMG ammo, but Hirtenberger of Austria made a run of L7A1 9mm ammunition some years ago which was made for the Brits for SMG use "under adverse conditions". I suspect that's not the first time that a special run of SMG ammo has been produced.
 
I have always had a problem with stories of an army issuing super powerful SMG ammo that was dimensionally the same as its pistol ammo but would blow up the pistols. I know military establishments are not always towers of intellectual brilliance, but I just don't quite understand why an army would deliberately issue ammunition that would destroy its own guns, regardless of any supposed benefits that might accrue to its use in other guns.

Of course, time must be considered. There is little doubt that the old Italian Glisenti can be damaged by WWII Italian SMG ammo, but the old pistol had long been out of service by the time the SMG was adopted. The Italian army was not concerned about any possible problems of future American gun collectors.

Jim
 
In the case of Swedish 9mm ammo for smgs (the swedish K) it is definitly true

guys at my club would not take it even if given, apart from the glock guys that is:D
 
There were some Glisentis and Brixias carried by Italians in WWII. It must have been a logistical nightmare for the bearer trying to keep the two different types of ammo separate.
 
"I have heard a lot about German special 9mm for SMGs but have never seen any, and AFAIK there was no such thing."

American Rifleman has said in the past that the Nazis never produced any such ammo.

After 1945 under the Bundesrepublik, I don't know.
 
There was no "logistical nightmare" for the Italians in WWII. The Glisenti/Brixia was no longer an issue pistol. If any Italian soldiers had them, they were personal weapons and the ammo was the responsibility of the owner.

The British might have used some special SMG ammo, but I doubt it would have blown up the BHP's they were also using. I will say again that I don't believe that any army deliberately issued ammunition that would blow up its issue guns and (if the stories are true) kill their own soldiers. Aside from the loss of troops, it would seem to me that there would be a morale issue if every time a soldier aimed at an enemy he had to wonder if his gun would blow up and kill him!

Jim
 
There was no "logistical nightmare" for the Italians in WWII. The Glisenti/Brixia was no longer an issue pistol. If any Italian soldiers had them, they were personal weapons and the ammo was the responsibility of the owner.
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The .380 Beretta was adopted as the official sidearm in 1934, but both the Glisentis and Bodeo revolvers were also issued until 1945.
 
Blowing up pistols is an exaggeration. Some manufacturers have made sub gun only 9mm ammo. What we would call +p+. Hirtenberger and IMI come to mind. A steady diet of that ammo will wear out a pistol pretty quickly.
 
I don't believe that any army deliberately issued ammunition that would blow up its issue guns and (if the stories are true) kill their own soldiers.
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I agree fully, and I am also skeptical about "blow up" stories. But what I am talking about is ammo that is too hot for certain handguns, but far short of the blow up point.

Also, while no military will deliberately issue the wrong ammo, mistakes sometimes happen, and troops will use what ever they can get their hands on.

The wide variety of 9mm guns and ammo is what complicates, if not creates the issue. Shoot ammo too hot (but not blow up levels) and you batter the pistol. The High Power I saw with peened locking lugs was attributed to "hot European surplus 9mm". I didn't see it happen, only the results, after "3-4boxes" had been shot. Its hearsay, to me, but I believe it, knowing the guy (no possibility of handloads).

I think a military would be ok with hot ammo for subguns, knowing that if it got used in a pistol (against the rules) it wouldn't cause immediate failure. I also think that if there was any "proof" of ammo causing blowups in pistols that either the ammo, or the pistols would be replaced in short order.
Or at the least the most "idiot proof" controls devisable would be put in place.

Now, when the stuff gets on the surplus market, possibly repackaged, those controls slip away. Rounds built to run the heavy slam bang bolt of a SMG, might easily put a more than acceptable strain on the mechanism of some pistols, but shouldn't cause any "blow up" situation immediately. Now a pistol battered from continued use of such ammo, could at some point fail catastrophically, (which might be the source of blow up stories) but I doubt it would "blow up" on the first or second magazine of shots.

Like an engine, its unlikely to turn into a grenade if you go over the red line, briefly. But if you run it up there, enough, it will fail, and fairly soon.
 
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