one shot stops
- Thread starter legacy38
- Start date
Fire as many shots as you like. The assumption is that you will quit shooting after the attack is stopped. So, if you fire four times, missing the first three, then stop the attack with the fourth round, you have a one shot stop. Of course, if you walk up to your assailant and fill him/her full of lead as they lay on the ground...nah, let's not go there.
“Stop” is a subjective term. Some see it as meaning that the attacker is lying stone dead on the ground, others see it as the moment the attacker ceases to be a threat. Bearing the latter in mind, I’d wager that a fair ammount of recorded “one shot stops” occur without the bullet hitting the target at all. My Grandfather is fond of telling his “one shot stop” story. He panicked and put a .22 round into a plaster ceiling... the would-be burglar instantly got on his knees and begged Grandpa not to shoot him 
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Though I like his story, I wouldn’t bet my life on the “one miss stop” theory. Carry a big gun. Shoot it well and shoot it often. Do all three at the same time and you’ll be fine
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. Though I like his story, I wouldn’t bet my life on the “one miss stop” theory. Carry a big gun. Shoot it well and shoot it often. Do all three at the same time and you’ll be fine
.Bullets don't work. That was the lesson at one conference I attended. Like Ankeny says, why stop with just one shot?
War story: I have a friend who was accosted by three BGs in a not so nice neighborhood. He backed off, fired one round between the middle guy's leg and drew up on them. They scattered and he walked away. This is another unreported use of a handgun where a robbery was prevented.
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Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt
War story: I have a friend who was accosted by three BGs in a not so nice neighborhood. He backed off, fired one round between the middle guy's leg and drew up on them. They scattered and he walked away. This is another unreported use of a handgun where a robbery was prevented.
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Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt
One shot stop???? I'd probably wont have the chance to experience if a single bullet (9mm or 45acp)hitting a BG will stop the threat. For me its either "no shot stop" or "double (tap) shot stop". The former if the BG stops when I draw, the second if he does'nt. If he's still a threat after the first double, he'll get another double.
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jj0287
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jj0287
I look at it this way...if I HAVE to shoot someone, they're not walking away if I can help it. Self defense, and more appropriately, deadly force, is justified when one's life is in imminent danger, or when you calculate that you just are not going to walk away without someone picking a fight. For a single attacker, armed with a knife or club, I'll always go for the German steel whip. I will always leave the gun for the LAST resort.
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"Stop forest fires--ban matches."
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"Stop forest fires--ban matches."
In the Evan Marshall/Edwin Sanow book Street Stoppers, chapter 24 is titled "Effects of Multiple Bulllet Impacts". In their findings, the double tap only increases one's odds of stopping the attack by a couple of percentage points at best. They recommend shooting until the attacker is " no longer in their sight picture". If "neural shock" is to occur, it appears the first hit from a handgun bullet is the most likely to render a quick stop from " sensory overload". Vascular shock due to low blood pressure takes several seconds or longer. If only one BG is present, one should score as many hits as possible to increase one's chance of survival. A lower brain or upper spine shot is the surest way of neutralizing the threat.
Somewhere I read that perhaps the best reason for the double tap was increased hit probability. I think this was from someone's military training experience. The first shot might miss,but the second seemed to contact the target with greater frequency.(Almost seems backwards I know)
[This message has been edited by JackNKoch (edited December 14, 1999).]
[This message has been edited by JackNKoch (edited December 14, 1999).]
The term "one-shot stop" is pretty much irrelevant, as how many people would stop after shooting an attacker once to see if they were "stopped"? You keep shooting
until:
1) They drop
2) You drop
3) You run out of ammo.
4) They decide to make a hasty retreat
5) You decide to make a hasty retreat.
If they drop after 1 shot, fine, but you don't have time to make that subjective judgement - i.e. some people may be faking.
[This message has been edited by lucky085 (edited December 14, 1999).]
until:
1) They drop
2) You drop
3) You run out of ammo.
4) They decide to make a hasty retreat
5) You decide to make a hasty retreat.
If they drop after 1 shot, fine, but you don't have time to make that subjective judgement - i.e. some people may be faking.
[This message has been edited by lucky085 (edited December 14, 1999).]
Every training session that I've had as a police officer has always stressed the firing of a controlled pair. I've practiced it enough that I'm sure that training will take over, and I will fire the controlled pair. I've also been trained that if the controlled pair doesn't stop the threat, it's time for a shot to the cranial (sp?) vault.
quick story:
Before we had our firearms training in the academy, we were all sent through a Judgemental Use of Force class in a simulator. The first time that I went through, I only shot the threat once. The instructor asked why I only shot once. I told him that I had hit the target. He then explained to me about the need for multiple shots. So, the next scenario, I shot the threat six times. After he stopped laughing, he told me about the use of controlled pairs.
quick story:
Before we had our firearms training in the academy, we were all sent through a Judgemental Use of Force class in a simulator. The first time that I went through, I only shot the threat once. The instructor asked why I only shot once. I told him that I had hit the target. He then explained to me about the need for multiple shots. So, the next scenario, I shot the threat six times. After he stopped laughing, he told me about the use of controlled pairs.
I have my own misgivings about "one shot stop statistics," but goat shootings and fudged data aside, they do have some value, IMHO.
No, they won't predict bullet performance, there are nohwere near enough shootings to be statistically valid (even when the stats are computed honestly), and they can't take other factors into account. What they can do is give you a VERY rough idea of OVERALL effectiveness.
Not a lot of help, really, but some. Take them with a grain of salt, realize that they really can't PREDICT anything, and look for overall trends and you'll probably get some value out of them.
If all else fails, remember that bigger bullets make bigger holes, and you'll probably do just fine.
No, they won't predict bullet performance, there are nohwere near enough shootings to be statistically valid (even when the stats are computed honestly), and they can't take other factors into account. What they can do is give you a VERY rough idea of OVERALL effectiveness.
Not a lot of help, really, but some. Take them with a grain of salt, realize that they really can't PREDICT anything, and look for overall trends and you'll probably get some value out of them.
If all else fails, remember that bigger bullets make bigger holes, and you'll probably do just fine.
"One Shot Stops" start getting viable with shotguns or rifles...a pistol is a very weak firearm in comparison. It's virtues are convenience and portability, not power. Still, good work can be done with it.
IMHO, you should shoot at what you 've got until the threat is over. Be very careful of those who tell you to "double tap then assess the damage." Even if you hit with the double, while you're "assessing," he may close the gap and eat your lunch.
YOU FIGHT LIKE YOU TRAIN...HIT IT HARD AND OFTEN...
IMHO, you should shoot at what you 've got until the threat is over. Be very careful of those who tell you to "double tap then assess the damage." Even if you hit with the double, while you're "assessing," he may close the gap and eat your lunch.
YOU FIGHT LIKE YOU TRAIN...HIT IT HARD AND OFTEN...
First off, I believe shot placement is where its at. If you hit the proper target with sufficient energy to penetrate and cause damage to the major organs/CNS you are better off than multiple fringe hits.
Now:
I don't think that the "One Shot Stop" was ever meant to be a standard of how many rounds should be fired or how many hits you must make. It is just a yard stick of bullet performance.
Jack 99 hit it on the head when he said basically there is insufficient data to be an absolute set of rules. But we like to have an idea on which ammunition is usually the most effective. At least M&S gave us something to use until a better method comes along.
I guess I'm saying that I agree with Jack 99.
Neil Casper
Now:
I don't think that the "One Shot Stop" was ever meant to be a standard of how many rounds should be fired or how many hits you must make. It is just a yard stick of bullet performance.
Jack 99 hit it on the head when he said basically there is insufficient data to be an absolute set of rules. But we like to have an idea on which ammunition is usually the most effective. At least M&S gave us something to use until a better method comes along.
I guess I'm saying that I agree with Jack 99.
Neil Casper
I think that one thing that the stats don't take into account are is the skill of the shooter. While the statistics may very well show which ammo performs the best, I don't think that it is totally accurate because those that did stop the attacker with one shot from a .45 ACP were probably much better shooters than the guy who used 3 9mm rounds to stop the threat.
I'm not trying to say that the .45 ACP isn't a better defensive round than the 9mm. I'm just trying to point out this possible error in the data. Of course, the only scientific way that we could actually test this is to have a Chinese prison guard do all of the testing on prisoners who are told that they go free if they escape.
I'm not trying to say that the .45 ACP isn't a better defensive round than the 9mm. I'm just trying to point out this possible error in the data. Of course, the only scientific way that we could actually test this is to have a Chinese prison guard do all of the testing on prisoners who are told that they go free if they escape.
Bullets kill three ways. They hit the Upper CNS, they cause a BG to die from loss of 02 (due to lack of blood circulation), and everything else. If you don't hit the CNS, you will never reliably get a one shot stop. If you miss the CNS, you want them to lose blood flow/preassure as fast as possible. That said, my favorite one shot stop weapon is the M1A2's main gun. I've never seen anyone get up from a DUFSDS to any part of the body. It does kick a bit though ;-)
Puddle Pirate
New member
DJL2,
But is it concealable?
But is it concealable?
Most of the newbies to the shooting sport, or CCW arena, are polluted by "must see TV's" use of firarms. Shoot a BG - he flies across the room and actually breaks the sheetrock (sometimes even the brick...).
It is amazing how the body can still continue to function, although for a short period of time, after being shot in a non-critical (vascular, not N.S.) location. A BG could waltz around for minutes after being shot, pumped on adrenalin and shock.
About 3 months ago, here just north of Houston in Conroe, TX, a perfect and tragic example of this issue occurred.
A woman who owned a "mom and pop" small grocery store was working at night. A perp walked in with hood over his head and promptly displayed a 12ga shotgun. The woman sensed a bad situation and actually had her handgun out when the BG drew on her with the 12ga.
She fired only ONE round from a distance of about 1.5 FEET and hit the perp CM.
The BG dropped the shotgun, walked around the counter (woman STILL not shooting again!), wrestled the handgun from her and shot her 3 times.
The BG then, still with a chest wound mind you, tries unsuccessfully to open the cash register. He decides to leave and was found collapsed right at the front doors, dead.
She did well to recognize a bad situation and draw quickly but she was obviously not trained to expect the perp to be able to function after a single shot.
My wife and I always train with multiple double taps.
Be safe.
CMOS
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GOA, TSRA, LEAA, NRA, SAF and I vote!
It is amazing how the body can still continue to function, although for a short period of time, after being shot in a non-critical (vascular, not N.S.) location. A BG could waltz around for minutes after being shot, pumped on adrenalin and shock.
About 3 months ago, here just north of Houston in Conroe, TX, a perfect and tragic example of this issue occurred.
A woman who owned a "mom and pop" small grocery store was working at night. A perp walked in with hood over his head and promptly displayed a 12ga shotgun. The woman sensed a bad situation and actually had her handgun out when the BG drew on her with the 12ga.
She fired only ONE round from a distance of about 1.5 FEET and hit the perp CM.
The BG dropped the shotgun, walked around the counter (woman STILL not shooting again!), wrestled the handgun from her and shot her 3 times.
The BG then, still with a chest wound mind you, tries unsuccessfully to open the cash register. He decides to leave and was found collapsed right at the front doors, dead.
She did well to recognize a bad situation and draw quickly but she was obviously not trained to expect the perp to be able to function after a single shot.
My wife and I always train with multiple double taps.
Be safe.
CMOS
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GOA, TSRA, LEAA, NRA, SAF and I vote!
In regards to "one-shot stop" and the double-tap: The reason I believe in the "double-tap" is that you should NEVER shoot your weapon at someone UNLESS you intend to kill, i.e. shoot center-mass. The double-tap should be used because the situation has escalated to the point where deadly force is needed.
DON'T shoot and "keep shooting"! You should:
tap-tap; check the situation/surroundings; tap-tap more as needed.
What if you "tap-tap" the BG so that he's dead and falling and put in 2 more as he's falling... what if it turns out that you NEED those extra 2 shots for MORE BG's?
When I was in the military, I was trained that you ONLY use full-auto "hold the trigger down" shooting under SPECIFIC SITUATIONS. Otherwise, you shoot a burst of 2-3 rounds... re-aquire, shoot 2-3 rounds, etc...
The same principle applies to shooting handguns against BG's...
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Stand against evil, lest evil have its way...
DON'T shoot and "keep shooting"! You should:
tap-tap; check the situation/surroundings; tap-tap more as needed.
What if you "tap-tap" the BG so that he's dead and falling and put in 2 more as he's falling... what if it turns out that you NEED those extra 2 shots for MORE BG's?
When I was in the military, I was trained that you ONLY use full-auto "hold the trigger down" shooting under SPECIFIC SITUATIONS. Otherwise, you shoot a burst of 2-3 rounds... re-aquire, shoot 2-3 rounds, etc...
The same principle applies to shooting handguns against BG's...
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Stand against evil, lest evil have its way...