On the fence about gun rights.

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Oh don't get me wrong Jimbob, I wholeheartedly agree that there is much more to this issue than just poor parenting and a morally bankrupt social body.

I can speak from experience on this. When my father was young, he used to get into all sorts of trouble (You know, boy trouble) being rowdy in class, not being very attentive, stuff like that. He was 7-8 years old. Teachers coped, he was just being a kid, nothing was considered odd about his behaviour, him playing cops and robbers was not seen as symptoms of him being mentally deficient in any which way or form.

Fast forward to recent years when I was just a wee brat, and at the tender age of 6 my teachers saw fit to say that they thought I had ADD or ADHD because I would not sit still, mouth shut, and attentive to their lectures on the english aplhabet and how to add 2+2.

They immediately suggested I be placed on Ritlen, which caused all sorts of issues. Fortunately, my mother had enough sense to not blindly listen to what my teachers said, and through her own studies found that there were days that I was just fine and behaved as they "expected" me to even when I was off the medication, while others I was the typical 6 yo deliquent with ADHD that they thought I was when on the medication.

The solution for taking care of the burden of parenting nowadays is to push off the responsibilty to either drugging up our children until they're mindless zombies, or letting television or video games do the work for us. Ultimately though, what does that do to these children when they are confronted with problems that occur in every day life?

Such as bullying. Without proper guidance, most children (I emphasis most) don't know how to properly handle the situation, some break down and get depressed, others get angry, sometimes violently so.

They then grow up, and have all these unresolved issues in their past affecting them in their adolescent/adult life, and when that one last straw breaks them, they go on a rampage, seeking release, seeing as getting even or killing themselves as the only resolution.

Each and every one of us, our lives are filled with choices, and while free will plays as much of a role in anything we do (We all know some parents, that did all the right things, that still end up with bad apples), and a child will have one of two options depending on their personality among other things. To handle a situation responsibly or irresponsibly.

However, if they are never shown how to do so, it is less likely that they will go the responsible route when dealing with intense emotions such as anger or sorrow. (I've gone down both paths as a child)

My generation in particular is really messed up, how many times have I heard kids saying they just want to shoot someone that wronged them, that they wish all the pain in the world to descend upon their shoulders etc. Proper parenting is not a fool proof way to ensure a child will not take a wrong turn in life and do evil things, but it certainly does help encourage them not to do so. Again free will.

All of the above factor into what happens and what drives these individuals to do what they do IMO. So let us ask ourselves, do we have a gun problem, or a violent criminal/individual problem in our country/world. I'm more inclined to think the latter.

Mental health being as murky as it is, and seeing as I have no real experience on the topic, I'll leave it at what I mentioned in my previous post and let someone who works in the field expand upon it.

another $20 worth on the topic from me.
 
we would rather all of the violent crimes continue to happen, than live without them.

Getting rid of the guns will not prevent violence.

Without firearms, what you have is rule by the strong: things get Medieval in a hurry, when Might makes Right: Were the Middle Ages a time of "Peace"? Not at all- IIRC, they began with the Sacking of Rome, and ended with "The Hundred Years War" ..... and the rise of gun equipped armies that could shoot down the mightiest, best armored warriors in the world .......

I suggest everyone should read the most excellent essay by Marko Kloos, entitled "Why the Gun is Civilization.

http://munchkinwrangler.wordpress.com/2007/03/23/why-the-gun-is-civilization/

I'm irritated that a search for the essay still has entries attibuting Marko's work to a "Major Caudill". I'm sure Marko is, too.
 
we would rather all of the violent crimes continue to happen, than live without them.

Better you should say, we don't believe violent crimes would cease, if guns were banned, and so we prefer not to give up one of our best means of self-defense.

You could even say, we believe that the tendency of government to overreach, over-legislate, and seize power and wealth would accelerate much faster, if the government could convince the citizenry to disarm.

We don't live in Utopia. Pretending we might will not make it so.
 
Bottom Line: Laws only effect the people who follow them. Criminals will always be armed, and new laws (particularly in NY) are only serving to limit the law abiding citizens' ability to protect themselves.
 
"It's a moral dilemma that I face."

There is no moral dilemma. Prevent criminals and mental cases from possessing firearms and the solution is at hand.

There is no way to determine if law-abiding citizens and those with mild personality issues are going to commit mayhem with a firearm, that's not something we need to be concerned about.
 
Bottom Line: Laws only effect the people who follow them. Criminals will always be armed, and new laws (particularly in NY) are only serving to limit the law abiding citizens' ability to protect themselves.

you're also making a very large assumption that there are no criminals among those of us that have legally acquired guns. what about the gun owner who has committed no crime their entire life but then goes and shoots someone out of anger? does that make him/her mentally unstable and would that person have any record of mental illness? No, they wouldn't.

the current political climate surrounding gun control has brought out a lot of anger in the gun community. you could probably go to any gun forum and find someone who proposes inciting a revolution of some sort. I mean look at some of the BS that Ted Nugent throws out. it might be rhetoric but it's dangerous rhetoric.
 
Spare the rod and spoil the child. This i feel is part of whats wrong with society today. Consequences for ones actions are the best deterrent.
The gun laws already in place need to be enforced. Period!!
 
No person should be denied their right to keep and bear arms without a conviction of a crime or a criminal case where the judge ruled the defendant was mentally defective.

When you start slinging around the idea that a mental case should not have a gun it is a dangerous thing for the American people. There are a lot of mentally ill people out there who are less likely to harm someone than people who are not mentally ill or refuse treatment even though they are.

For instance I have yet to see a sociopath/psychopath to seek treatment for their illness without first being ordered by a court to do so.
 
Dangerous rhetoric has its place.

If it did not, we would never have heard of Sam Adams or Thomas Payne, and we would probably still be paying taxes to a king.
 
I used to believe that gun control was for the better good of this country. I used to think that people were safer with strict laws. I used to think that only people who wanted to do bad things had guns.

Until I bought my first gun, started doing research, and then bought another. And another. What tipped me from one side of the coin to the other was discovering the proof for myself via fatality rates from the bureau of vital statistics. I was able to see for myself how fatality rates declined as gun ownership went up over the decades. I was also able to see the fallacy of the often quoted stats about how much more likely a person is to have their own gun used against them, or to be shot/killed by someone they know.

After learning that the antigun groups lie blatantly to support their cause, compared to the pro-2nd Amendment groups who use truth rather than emotion, it was easy to change my own mind.
 
I think that universal background checks could be a good idea, of course it wont stop all gun crime, but if it could stop a few mentally unstable, or stop some people who shouldn't guns from doing so.

How is it anyone even thinks this is a possibility. It is mind boggling.

Criminals buy guns from other criminals all the time. Because thieves break into homes and gun shops all the time and steal them to sell them.

You propose this might stop a few, some, maybe one unstable person from getting their hands on a gun.

The people who think this will prevent some criminal from getting a gun at a gun show are living the same dream.

I'll propose an idea and see what you think.

Criminal/mental person goes to a gun show and can't buy a gun. He had money to buy one gun, but he can't.

But he does really want a gun, how is he going to get it. He ponders this as he leaves the gun show, hmmm, so many lucky people leaving with new guns ... Oh, man that guy has three guns.

I know, I'll just take his guns if I can. I'll follow him and see where he goes.

I am in luck, he stopped for lunch at Denny's. I use the tire iron from my car and now I have three new guns. I only had the money to buy one, but now I have three. My lucky day.

Laws do not prevent anything, ever. You really must understand this concept. Laws guide the law abiding and serve as a basis for punishing the law breaker. The mentally ill just do whatever is in their heads and we are suppose to recognize them and get them the help they need.

You should not expect a law to do something it can't do.
 
smartperson,
Hopefully you will soon interject some comments to the responses so this is not a driveby post/thread... hope hope hope. You are getting some good input methinks.

Isn't that fence getting kinda uncomfortable? :D
 
Prevention of crime = impossible
Defense in the face of crime = possible

We need to stop working on impossible things and work on possible things.
 
Smartperson won't be rejoining the discussion, so I'm going to go ahead and close this. Thanks to all those who made it a polite and informative thread.
 
Baba Louie said:
smartperson,
Hopefully you will soon interject some comments to the responses so this is not a driveby post/thread... hope hope hope. You are getting some good input methinks.

Isn't that fence getting kinda uncomfortable?

Alas, as many suspected from the first post, "smartperson" has been confirmed as a troll and will not be back to discuss these points.

Even so, he/she has unintentionally created a valuable thread, and perhaps real "fence-sitters" will learn from it.

Plus, anyone watching can plainly see the reasoned and informed opinions expressed here versus the dishonesty, "troll" tactics and idiocy employed by the other side.
 
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