on Tasers- by the Journal of Emergency Medical Services (JEMS)

No.
You are right. I am wrong.
I misread the article.
I thought it said that the darts only penetrate a quarter inch: not the current. I was talking out my rear end. Obviously, it doesn't matter how far the darts penetrate, so I was basically also saying it doesn't matter how far the darts penetrate: you can shock someone and cause muscle contraction without any penetration (of the skin). Which of course has nothing to do with what was actually said. :o
 
I've seen 30-40 people after they'd been tazed. Only one coded (stopped breathing and had no perceptable pulse) shortly afterward and had to be given CPR and put into the intensive care unit overnight. Which is pretty good odds compared to the days when police would bring them in shot in the face.
 
A quick note, TENS. Anybody use or know someone who has one? They use pulsed electrical charges to stimulate muscles. They use up to 4 leads/pads generically to cause a muscular contraction fom their electrical impulse. I have seen heavy contractions induced with TENS. They are not available OTC. Tasers are overused. Stun guns were also. The Tasers are a fatal factor in some cases. The problem with Tasers medical testing is that dead pigs are used and they have little to no human test data. I have used Tasers and have seen them used. They do not always work. When they do work, they sometimes bring on respiratory arrest. I have seen Tasered perps fall and hurt themselves. I have not witnessed a cardiac arrest in anyone that was not a cocaine abuser or meth freak. The sudden drop from the high causes cardiac tamponade and this results in a cardiac emergency. I have witnessed this in athletes as well. A stressful physical exertion, rise in heart rate and blood pressure with sudden cessation can be fatal. I feel it is risky to use a Taser. Physically closing with a perp is riskier. I am not a Taser proponent though. I have used them since they were a flashlight with 2 shots.
 
Let's cut to the chase

Having been on the business end of an X26 Taser 3 times and the giving end dozens of times I can assure ya'll of a few things.

1. They work. Believe me, boy do they work.
2. They (the Taser itself) does not cause any injury. If you fall down that's not electrical damage and if you have a nerve/muscle injury it's just a consequense of resistance that probably would've happened anyway. It's a completely different wave length from cardiac nerve impulses and will not interfere with normal heart rhythms. People who have bad hearts (or anyone for that matter) shouldn't be resisting arrest. Any fight is a stressfule event.
3. The effects stop when the charge stops. It is immediate with no residual effects from the electricity. Electrocution is instantaneous, many of the supposed "Taser deaths" happend hours to weeks later. BTW, the tests were not all on dead pigs, they used live pigs and dogs. Since the initial tests over 100,000 volunteers have taken the ride without any significant injuries, only some caused by falling, muscle contractions, etc.
4. I would MUCH prefer it to getting hit with OC spray or struck with a baton.

Let's not get bogged down in intricacies and forget the big pic. They work and are much less likely to injure/kill than other available weapons. Yes I am an instructor and No I do not work for Taser Intl.
 
"...wave length from cardiac nerve impulses"

Wave length has nothing to do with it.

A Tazer is going to be less deadly than high speed lead, and is a great 'less lethal' tool.

The manufacturer has probably stepped out a little to far with some of their claims. This will invite lawsuits.

Claims without extremely solid backup data (and "over 100,000 volunteers..." is anecdotal and not solid) will get taken through the wringer by the plaintiff's bar. The first point raised could be that probably a very large fraction of the 100,000 are healthy younger men and women. While a pre-existing conditions are not the resonsability of the police to determine (and they cannot anyway) it will end up in court. The company will end up paying even more for lawyers and end up fighting over the validity of the research.

They need to keep the excessive claims in check.
(sarcasm)
Ain't the legal system wonderful?
(/sarcasm)
 
100,000 volunteers is very well documented and yes wave length is important, it's the very center of how the device works. The Taser waves are nearly identical the waves of the nerves in the muscular system. If they were identical to cardiac waves then they would be overridden instead of your skeleto-muscular system. Tasers are extremely well tested and documented. There are volumes of data from the company, DoD, and countless government agencies.
 
SCCop

+1, and then some. I'm sure there are abuses out there, but I've personally seen two lives saved , not taken, by the use of a Taser. And you are very right: wave length is the most important facet of a Taser. The voltage is pulsed to coincide with that of the voluntary muscle nerve impulses, so that, instead of coherent signals to the muscles, all they get is "static".
 
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I don't think there's any question that Tasers are less lethal than other alternatives when deployed properly; nor do I believe there is any question that they carry their own risk of injury.

But that's not the real issue for me. The real issue is whether, over time, they will "lower the bar" for use of force. It's not like there is no precedent for such: No-Knock raids had some real value at one time; today they're used with such frequency that we (rightfully) question whether they should be used at all.

Same with Tasers. If they're used only as an alternative to a situation where force is required, no problem. But when we start to see school kids being tased or a prone pre-tased female hit a second time for "not rolling over", we begin to question whether the bar is being lowered.

By dismissing Taser use as "far better than the alternative" we encourage use as a compliance, rather than alternative force, tool. That is a very dangerous trend.
Rich
 
“The Advanced Taser” A Medical Review”, Bleetman & Steyn from the www.taser.com has some interesting test results and some significant errors.
The Taser device they tested was a 26 W unit (M-26) that produced peak currents of 18 amps, voltages of 50 kV, and used 11 microsecond pulses.
There is little other data presented about the actual wave shapes used, but
“Cardiac Safety of Neuromuscular Incapacitating Defensive Devices”, McDaniel et al. shows representative waveforms for a model X26 Taser provides additional details, including some actual wave shapes.
The basic shape shown is a series of 3 short pulses (the ~11 microsecond pulses referred to by Bleetman & Steyn) followed by a larger ‘pedestal’ duration pulse of approximately 50% of the peak amplitude but with a duration of ~50 microseconds. The 11 microsecond pulses have a predominate frequency of ~45 kHz, while the longer pedestal provides a frequency component of ~10 kHz.
While these may appear to be higher frequencies compared to typical biological signals, they are actually not considered high at all from an electrical engineering view. A reference is made to “skin effect” limiting the tissue penetration depth in Bleetman & Steyn.
The human body is not a ‘good’ conductor like a metal. Metals do not allow the presence of an electric field. Nor is it an insulator. Skin effects occur in conductors and limit the penetration of the electric field based on the conductivity of the material. Skin effects also occur in dielectrics based on the dielectric constant of the material.
http://niremf.ifac.cnr.it/tissprop/htmlclie/htmlclie.htm#atsftag provides a database of body tissue electrical properties as a function of frequency. This site quickly shows that there is no significant skin effect present at either of the frequencies predominant in the Taser waveform. At 45 kHz, no tissue type has a penetration of less than ~1.68 meters for CSF. Muscle shows a depth of 4.16 m. At 10 kHz the CSF again shows the shortest penetration, but it has now increased to 3.56 meters.
The current from the Taser is going to flow in an impedance defined distribution between the probes with no appreciable skin effect from frequency. The Taser frequencies are simply not high enough. Since the probes are in the skin and underlying tissue the current will tend to take the shortest path, but current does not flow in a straight narrow cylinder. The site above also has conductivity data for various tissue types, and this will have an effect on the actual current path taken. The higher the peak current the more spreading is going to occur. The ability of tissue to carry current is limited by the ion density present within the tissue. As more and more ions are involved in moving current, the dynamic impedance of the tissue appears to rise. This forces the current to expand in to a larger cross section within the body. Since the current cannot move outwards from the skin, the only path is to penetrate deeper into the body. The fact that the TASER is purported to affect nervous tissue more than muscle is noted by Bleetman & Steyn. The actual conductivity of heart muscle is ~2.9 times better than the nerve tissue at 45 kHz, and ~3.6 times better at 10 kHz.
Despite the Taser’s manufacturers data of producing p to 50 kV, the testing by McDaniel et al. was conducted at a fixed voltage of 6 kV and relied on matching delivered charge to anesthetized pigs. This assumption of charge delivered being the critical matching parameter is not justified in the paper. While charge is directly related to current (charge per time) it may not be the correct matching parameter, and the se of a lower voltage will have serious effects on the current distribution within the body.

Arguments are also made regarding persons with pacemakers being less likely to ever be involved in a Tazer incident. While this indicates a low probability of such an individual being on the receiving end of a Tazer, it does nothing to determine what the results might be if they were ‘Tazed’. Assumptions about safety could easily lead to more frequent use and this increased exposure could tend to negate the low probability assumption.

I do not have access to the schematics of a Tazer to see exactly how the device is creating the high voltage and delivering it. A typical method would be to use a transformer to step the voltage up from the initial low battery voltage and then charge a capacitor. The discharge characteristics would then be extremely dependent on the impedance of the load circuit (the human body). Remember the probes have pierced the high resistance of the skin and are applying the voltage directly to the much lower impedance internal tissue. This is very consistent with peak currents of 18 A. While the energy delivered (joules) is a fraction of a typical external defibrillator, the defibrillator is designed to force complete depolarization of the cardiac nerves and restore a normal sinus rhythm. Values below this will have differing effects. McDanieal et al. has a ‘safety index’ defined as the ratio of the discharge to induce ventricular fibrialtion (VF) to the discharge of an NMI device. The attempt at a linear fit between this safety index and the pig’s weight is at best poor, and indicates other confounding factors are likely present in the experimental data.


AI is in typical fashion over reacting, but the safety of the Tazer across a wide population does not appear to be clearly established. It is obviously safer than a firearm, but it is not ‘completely safe’ and this should be taken into account when establishing protocols for the use of the Tazer.


And just as a note, wavelength is not the factor that would be of any importance. I believe you are actually speaking of the period of the delivered energy. This is the type of confusion created by the sloppy use of terms.
 
Kinkaid bans police use of Tasers The article in question is toward the bottom of the page. Basic facts are another guy died shortly after he was tazed. All the big cheezes are arguing about why, how and what for.

As I've said before Tasers aren't a weapon, they are an instrument of dominence and submission. After reading all that's been argued on the subject I've about decided they may also be used in S&M games. :rolleyes:
 
The S&M corwd uses 'violet wands'. Do not ask, I testified as profesional engineer (electrical) about the safety of the things.
 
Rich and MeekandMild have crystalized my thinking on the subject. Tasers are essentially torture devices designed to produce compliance, which is fine; all compliance devices and methods are essentially torture when viewed out of context. However, the unproven notion that tasers have no residual effects allows police to justify their use much more easily, which results in increased, and inappropriate, deployment. I think tear gas makes a better comparison, being pretty much non-lethal; even though it doesn't permanently harm the suspect, what cop is going to use tear gas to get an uncooperative driver out of a car?

There is no evolutionary reason for us to be adapted to deal well with electricity. Lightning strikes are rare, random, and it's unlikely that a genetic defense could be developed.* Encounters with electric eels and such are at least as rare. We've only had other forms of electricity for about 250 years. Until there's a lot more data (which is difficult to procure because it's tough to get people to volunteer for potentially lethal experiments), I think treating tasers as non-lethal is extremely foolish. They may be non-lethal in most circumstances, but if there's a risk that a healthy individual may die if unfortunate enough to be tased between the solar plexus and left shoulder, that's unacceptable if tasers are used in simple cases of non-compliance.

Coupling those concerns with Taser Inc.'s inappropriate marketing of the taser as a self defense tool, I am not impressed with the company's ethics. They don't deserve their current market cap.

* I am, however, quite curious whether there are any animals that have distributed blood pumping mechanisms. An entire family of salamanders have distributed air dispersal via pores in the skin... I don't see why a creature couldn't have blood vessels lined with muscles that would pump blood, eliminating the need for a heart. Oh well.. it will probably make an interesting project for genetic engineers a hundred years from now.
 
A Taser is not a "compliance tool" (yes, it can be used that way, so can a pistol, so can a wet noodle). The Taser is designed as a temporary incapacitation tool. When it works, it renders a combative subject unable to continue with violence (the spirit may be willing, but the flesh (ambulatory muscles) is getting no electro signals from the brain in a coherent enough pattern to continue meaningful function).
As soon as the current is off, the person is able to function again.
 
TBO, you're familiar with the recent video of the idiotic lady in Florida who wouldn't get out of her Isuzu Rodeo? That demonstrated clearly that the taser is used (at least in Boynton Beach, FL) as a compliance tool first and as an incapacitation tool second. If the cops' only goal was to incapacitate her, they would have grabbed and restrained her on the first tase.
 
That demonstrated clearly that the taser is used (at least in Boynton Beach, FL) as a compliance tool first and as an incapacitation tool second....
And as TBO said, it can be abused. It can be used for compliance, or torture. So can a gun, a knife, a gun, dripping water, etc etc etc. Question: do we ban everything that can be abused, or do we educate and/or punish those who abuse? As said before, I've been hit with both the Taser and OC spray, and I'll take being hit by a Taser any day of the week.
 
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TheeBadOne said:
A Taser is not a "compliance tool" (yes, it can be used that way, so can a pistol [snip]
No, a gun is NOT a "compliance tool" unless used by a Soccer Mom Fool. It is a weapon of Lethal Force. BAD Comparison.....VERY BAD.

Capt Charlie said:
It can be used for compliance, or torture. So can a gun [snip]
And the point being, Capt?

This is the specific desensitization I'm talking about:
"Oh, he just Tased the child; Thank God he didn't have to SHOOT her". Well maybe he didn't "have to" do either, but for department Acceptable Use of Force Policies in the Year of Our Lord 2006.

Tasers work VERY well in theory. Will work VERY poorly in practice if this attitude is continued. It WILL become a day-to-day "compliance" tool.
And that, People, is a very ugly thought to those of us who would resist gratuitous "Compliance Thru Violence" with whatever force is at our disposal.

Welcome to The Great Divide.
Rich
 
If you look through all the white noise at the true data, Tasers have racked up an amazing number of life saves, injuries down (suspect & Officer), and saved a boat load of tax $$$ (lawsuits over injuires/gunshots/deaths).
 
TBO-
You continue to miss the point. No one here is saying they should be banned; just that they should be seen for what they are: Alternative Use of FORCE; not a "Compliance Tool".

The Patriot Act "saves lives", too. At what cost?
Rich
 
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