On filing sights to regulate.............

B

Bob Wright

New member
I've been called to task many times for advocating filing the sights to sight in a handgun. Too many times I've been shown the target that analyzes what the shooter is doing wrong and how to compensate for it. And sort of had my knuckles slapped for advocating using a file to sight in, or adjusting my sights.

To those, I offer the following argument:

I bought a Cimarron Open Top 1872 Navy in .38 Special recently. First trip to the range produced these results:



I took a mill file to the range and carefully counted the strokes and fired groups. Here the results:



These groups are rather embarrassing, but both the gun and I can do better. These sights are not the best for precise shooting. the rear sight, on the end of the barrel, is a spraddle legged "M" (/\/\)while the front is an inverted "V." Rather hard to see. If I had use a rest or two handed hold, groups would have been better.

Bob Wright
 
From what I've seen I think you know what you're doing and if you want to take a file to the front sight, well it's YOUR gun.

I think those diagrams that show where the rounds are hitting and what you're doing wrong are more for the new shooters that probably ARE gripping the gun incorrectly. Once you've got the grip down I see no problem with adjusting the sights. I'm a big fan of adjustable sights except maybe for the self-defense pocket handgun crowd although I certainly understand NOT getting adjustable sights on a gun that you want to be more authentic to the classic western six-shooter.

Also, and you would certainly be the expert here over me, I suspect the original six-shooters, and maybe the replicas too, were given front sights a little too high on purpose just so you COULD file them down to your own personal preference.

Good luck. (And that Cimarron is a handsome looking firearm.)
 
I have filed several Single Action sights down to "zero" point of impact. Once you decide on a bullet weight for the majority of your shooting with a given gun, you slowly file down until the point of impact matches your point of aim. It maybe old technology, but it sure works.
 
I have filed the sights on two different guns. Both double action fixed sight guns. Both were shooting to the left. One of them by quite a bit. I had to widen the notch on the rear sight groove on the right side. But I got both to shoot to point of aim. I have no problem with someone adjusting the guns to correct the POI.

Some guns are designed so you need to file the sights. Once at the range a couple of guys were shooting a BP rifle at 100 yards. It was hitting a few inches low. One of the guys kept telling the other to add more powder until he was hitting the bullseye. I really should have explained to him that the rifle has a taller than needed front sight from the factory. That they should find what groups best and then slowly file the front sight to adjust the impact for that load. But I didn't feel like interfering with them.

Could you post better pics of the rear sight?

Oh yeah. I have filed a few front sights on BP rifles and Ruger fixed sight autos that also come with the front blade extra tall for final adjustment by the user.
 
I haven't ever filed a front site. I did, however, once have a revolver that consistently shot above point-of-aim. It didn't have any rear "sights" -- it had a trench along the top strap (much like the Colt SAA). I took a deep breath and went to work on the top strap with a mill file. Mercifully, I got to where POI pretty much coincided with POA before I ran out of trench.
 
ratshooter,

The little "pimple" on top of the barrel just ahead of the forcing coneis the rear sight, with a small "V" filed into it:




Best photo I have right now.

Bob Wright
 
Agreed on the chart thing vs filing. Yes,improper shooting fundamentals ARE a possibility,particularly on a new gun.

If you have a "rack" service pistol that has generally been shooting in the black for a variety of shooters for 15 years,yes! The chart may be useful.

But for a new shooter,new gun,taking the approach to beat the shooter with the chart.... is akin to taking someone new to computers and setting them up with an old,obsolete,bug ridden ,crash prone hand me down computer. It can mislead,frustrate,and discourage a new shooter who actually has a gun that shoots a foot low and eight inches right.If the shooter is making 9 ring size groups regularly a foot right I'd hold back with the chart stuff.

Maybe not so much with a cap and ball,as there is not much load flexibility,but with cartridge guns, POI can be moved a fair amount with bullet weight and burn rate.

I might wait till I was sure I found "The" load and had become quite well connected to the handgun ..."unconscious competence" and that,for example,I had no interest in changing grips,before I got the file out.
 
Hi Bob. That what I thought I saw in the earlier pictures. Thanks for posting. The rear sight only looks slightly better than the notched hammer rear sight.
 
I've got one of the CZ 1911s (not Dan Wesson) that I need to file down. Just haven't gotten around to it. It shoots several inches low. Sent it back to CZ and they said the sights were fine. Funny, the other 20+ 1911s I own don't shoot like that one. :rolleyes:
 
Mr, Wright, interesting and informative post. Thanks. I'm not top notch shooter, by any means. So, with my fixed sighted guns I just KY windage.
 
Interesting write up Bob.

Now i want to hear how you like the open top? Either a R & M Conversion on a '51 Navy or an open top like yours is on my bucket list. I haven't had a chance to handle a '72 open top yet - how is the rear sight attached - is it dovetailed or how is it attached?

Looks like you are getting it zeroed in!
 
I've filed the sight on 3 1911 guns, installed a higher rear sight on a 92fs.
I have a SAA in the safe that would have to be filed to make it right. I had a 4th 1911 that I returned because it shot low. I understand a gun shooting an inch or so high but no reason one should shoot low, I'm talking 3" low at 25 yards, poor quality.
 
The only thing with filing sights is if you change ammo/change loads/sell the gun to someone who shoots different ammo or at different ranges than you did.

I've had a few guns where the sights were too low and it's really annoying. IMO sights that are too tall are better than sights that are too short.

If the gun is shooting low, you can always sight using a lower point on the sight blade. You can put a paint mark or notch there and use that as your reference. You still have good X & Y verification

If the gun is shooting high, you have to aim at a spot lower than your intended target and you don't have a good reference line to your intended POI anymore.
 
DMK said:

The only thing with filing sights is if you change ammo/change loads/sell the gun to someone who shoots different ammo or at different ranges than you did
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.

Should I decide to sell the gun to someone else, the sights then become their worry. Changing out the front sight is not that big of a deal.



And:

If the gun is shooting low, you can always sight using a lower point on the sight blade. You can put a paint mark or notch there and use that as your reference. You still have good X & Y verification

If the gun is shooting high, you have to aim at a spot lower than your intended target and you don't have a good reference line to your intended POI anymore
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I have one sight picture for all of my guns, and I prefer to aim at what I'm intending to hit. As to "Kentucky windage" it galls me to aim at what I don't want to shoot in order to hit what I want to hit.

I had an old Iver Johnson Cattleman (Uberti) .44 Magnum. Shooting it gave me the uncomfortable feeling I was aiming at my big toe in order to hit a milk jug at twenty five yards distance. Didn't keep that gun very long.

Bob Wright
 
I bought a new revolver some years ago, and it shot a foot low and six inches right, at 25 yards.
Even when the manufacturer became aware of the problem and offered a replacement front sight, I calculated that it would raise the impact point only six inches.
If the gun is shooting low, and the sights aren't easily adjusted or replaced, there's not much to do but take a file to it.
I took off about 20% of the front sight's height, then thinned it on one side, the gun now hits to point of aim, and it's easier to do so with a front sight that doesn't completely fill the rear notch.
 
Mr. Wright, you are right :p

Seriously though, the chart you are referring to is not the panacea of training to shoot. It has good pointers for new shooters and instructors of new shooters, but if you've been doing this for years then I believe the chart is pretty useless. For an experienced shooter that can shoot good groups at 25 yards it will be one of two issues. Your sights are actually off (most likely), or your shooting style is so ingrained that to try and change it would cause more problems than it would solve. Especially if are an accomplished shooter already.

FWIW, filing a sight post (or rear blade) doesn't phase me. I have done it to sight in the gun, and I've also done it to just change the sight shape/profile.
 
Should I decide to sell the gun to someone else, the sights then become their worry.
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And this is why I wouldn't want to buy one of your fixed sight guns, used....

Changing out the front sight is not that big of a deal.
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so, why don't you do it?? oh, wait, you have a file!!! :rolleyes:

I'm not intending to call you names, or slap your knuckles, its your gun, and your business, and the post shows you are both organized and careful about doing it. Sadly, not everyone is as careful as you are.

You want your guns to hit POA, I get that. We're just on opposite ends about how we go about it. The very LAST thing I would do is take a file to the sights.

Probably as a result of my early training with handguns (which were not mine, and even if they had adjustable sights, I wasn't allowed to adjust them), and my preference for models of pistols that are (sometimes LONG) out of production, but I always look for other ways to hit what I'm "aiming at", before making any alterations to the gun (particularly permanent ones).

What I USUALLY do is learn the amount of hold off needed (Kentucky windage) as the short term fix, while I begin a search for ammo that will hit (or at least come close) my point of aim, the way I look through the sights.

The way I look through the sights is very likely not the exactly same way you do.

I bought a new revolver some years ago, and it shot a foot low and six inches right, at 25 yards...

If the gun is shooting low, and the sights aren't easily adjusted or replaced, there's not much to do but take a file to it.
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Unless you are willing to shoot different ammo....

And, isn't that the unstated reason for filing the sights?? To get the ammo you WANT to shoot to POA? OK, yes, some guns won't shoot POA with any ammo, and when/if that's the case, then working on the gun makes perfect sense to me.

But, until then, it doesn't. (again, to me). As an example (admittedly a bit extreme, but not unheard of), a friend came by with one of the SAA clones (I no longer recall which) in .357 Mag.

Nicely made gun, but it shot a full foot low and right with every .357 load we tried in it. 3 different shooter, all had the same result. That same gun, with no changes, other than the ammo, shot perfect POA and small groups (with all 3 shooters) when shooting standard 158gr .38 Special ammo.

Rather than file the sights (or do anything else to the gun), my friend decided he had a nice "cowboy .38", and went looking for an adjustable sight .357...

If the gun is in current production, and you need to file on it, that's your business, and while I won't recommend the process, except as a last resort, I won't fault you for doing it. The most important thing is that you hit what you aim at.

On the other hand, if you're going to do it to a collector's piece (like a pre-WWII S&W or Colt) just so you can hit with WallyWorld cheap practice ammo, the I feel you should put the file ...somewhere else ...:D
 
First of all, my ammunition is not WallyWorld ammunition. It is very carefully crafted at my loading bench. My choice of ammunition with this gun was to use .38 Special cases, loaded with a 158 gr. (preferably) Round Nosed Flat Point (RNFP) or a 140 gr. Truncated Cone Flat Point. And a charge of 3.5 to 4.0 grs. of Hodgdon's HP-38.

I have one other old vintage customized Colt Single Action I use this load in, so wanted to stay within that range.

As I've said before, I strongly dislike having to aim at what I don't want to shoot in order to hit what I want to hit.

There is nothing so sacred about a gun that it prevents one from making it put the bullet where one wishes the bullet to hit.


Bob Wright
 
My knuckles didn't get rapped nor did my feathers get ruffled, nor were my feelings hurt in anyway.

Some folks have their ways, I have mine. Makes no difference to me should one man want to aim at one point to hit elsewhere.

Like that famous comedian once said "How do you kill a rattlesnaKE WRONG?"


Bob Wright
 
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