On DA triggers- John Farnam Quips

As I read over these posts, I can understand better the attitude that Fairburn had with regards to safeties on handguns. He didn't like them and even had them pinned in place on the Colt automatics his police force used (though not the grip safeties). He probably would have loved Glocks, especially in .45 ACP.

On the other hand, his gun handling methods included chamber empty carry and a threat response of draw, chamber and start firing--as fast as possible. His officers also turned in their firearms at the end of every shift and handed over the next shift, so they went through the weapons clearing drill every day. He also had holes drilled in magazines so the cartridge count could be verified.
 
We are simply going to have to agree to disagree Handy

I personally find the DA/SA trigger to be a net loss since it negatively impacts the primary use of the weapon....shooting fast and well.

If having the ABS made it even slightly more difficult to steer the car or encouraged the driver to take stupid chances then we would have a good analogy (IMHO)

Kind of like the argument that a 30 mph max speed limit would greatly reduce fatalities...sure it would but I live in the real world where we need to get there today!

I happen to think guns are (and should be) dangerous...and I actually believe that danger helps keep people focused

And I get real nervous when the "if it stops one accident" is raised...kind of like "if it saves one life"

Because we could go to 25# triggers for the first pull, but resourceful idiots would never train with the DA trigger and/or practice "prepping" it so they could hit the target

Too many of the "safety first" crowd want to make handguns so safe that they won't actually fire:rolleyes: ...so I fear a slippery slope

*NOTE*- If the DA/SA trigger makes sense to/for you...enjoy...I was expressing a personal preference....just don't count on that DA pull to prevent a mishap
 
I think the crux of this is the idea that safety systems cannot prevent an accident.

They do. ACCIDENT. Not negligence, not lack of training, not stupidity. A DA trigger MAY save you on that one occasion when everything else went wrong. That's worth it to me, because everyone only gets one life.


As to "I personally find the DA/SA trigger to be a net loss since it negatively impacts the primary use of the weapon....shooting fast and well", this is a training issue. Anyone who has witnessed professionals shoot DA/SA autos knows that a DA trigger is very accurate at typical handgun ranges, and the gun can always be cocked if you want to shoot beyond that range.

I understand that you see it as decreasing performance for a minor bump in safety. But I see it as an increase in safety with only the most insignificant decrease in performance; one not even measurable at combat ranges.

With something like a deadly weapon, I'm inclined toward decreasing the chances of a screw-up, and practicing more to deal with learning to pull a trigger. That way, when my performance is at decreased capacity, I'm only more likely to miss with the first shot, rather than shoot myself.
 
A heavy DA trigger does not mean walk the streets with your finger on the trigger like this test showed. Therefore, thats why I felt this test had no real audience. It shows, that if you carry with your finger on the trigger, your gun can go off if you are startled - gee thanks?

DA trigger safety is more in the range of - Holstering the gun, when you feel slightly too much force being required. You remove the pistol to find some shirt tail or foreign object has bunched up in the trigger guard.
 
281...it is easy to be glib....which is why I do it a lot:D

But the thing to remember is that these people did not start out with their weapon in their hand and their finger on their trigger.

They progressed to that point and then something bad happened

I have seen it a lot in realistic(streesfull) training...and in those people trying to "shave a few seconds"

I am certain some/all of the participants would have probably made the same/similar comments sitting at their computer;)

But then when their pulse rate and adrenalin increased they steadily moved into a dangerous condition

I see it a lot....people with poor muzzle awareness and wandering trigger fingers and the defense is ...."it isn't loaded/that 12# pull makes it safe...it is not pointed at anyone"

I hear the same things about safeties.......

I hear it from people that stage that first DA pull..."I was on target and pretty sure I wanted to fire"...(hope so:o )

I hear it from people that buy weapons with manual safeties and then don't use them.

And it is always the same..."I am careful (enough?)"

So I would respectfully disagree.....the audience for this is everyone who is at risk of being complacent...which is every gun owner drawing a breath.

And especially.....anyone counting on any "safety" device to save them from what some see as "inevitable accidents... "

Incidently , I disagree with that term.....calling them accidents in some small way excuses them...at least in many minds...accidents are born of negligence..pure and simple

Anyone who sees that DA trigger as being even marginally safer and is therefore even marginally less vigilant should take this to heart.
 
Experiment

If I understood the first post, the experiment was intended to determine if a long, heavy trigger pull actually helped prevent NDs:

"What we were trying to evaluate was the premise that long, heavy trigger pulls were, or were not, useful in preventing NDs during pernicious confrontations."

The experiment showed that long, heavy trigger pulls did not prevent NDs.

By doing so, the experiment also showed that proper gun handling is necessary to prevent NDs.
 
Accidental Discharge (AD)
Click to expand...

Incidently , I disagree with that term.....calling them accidents in some small way excuses them...at least in many minds...accidents are born of negligence..pure and simple
Click to expand...

+1. I agree. And so does Jeff Cooper, Clint Smith, Mas Ayoob, etc.

In my early shooting days, I had two "accidents". One, a .22 rifle while hunting. I had my finger on the trigger, depending on a safety that I didn't know was broken at the time. When I stumbled, I tensed up and fired a round into the ground. Two, I put a round of 230grn ball through a closet door and into the floor.

I could "blame" the safety on #1, but it was my negligence that actually caused it, because I had my finger on the trigger. In #2, I violated RULE ONE. However, RULE TWO was in effect in both cases, at least as far as there was no physical injury. A heavy DA trigger wouldn't have prevented either of my ND's.
 
role-playing scenarios

There is another aspect of role-playing exercises that I've always found interesting: It's amazing how much stress even well-trained people can feel when performing in front of their peers. Even though you know it's really just an exercise, you also know that all of your buddies are watching you. It tends to simulate the stress of a real fight.

I'm retired now, but a few years ago I was attending a Simunitions instructor course. After the classroom portion, we prepared for the first live-fire scenario. We were reminded that the coach/observers would be wearing bright orange vests, but were not part of the scenario.

On the first exercise, the first student entered the first door, and immediately shot a clearly-marked unarmed observer with a Simunition round. We all had a good laugh, but we learned a good lesson. The stress of being the point-man in the entry team somehow made him shoot the first guy he encountered.

I don't remember if this student had his finger on the trigger or not. But no reasonable amount of heavy trigger-pull would have made a difference with this stress-induced mistake.
 
I have no problem with this article, except for the fact that people will misrepresent the data to mean that a DA trigger is no safer than an SA in ALL situations.

That simply isn't the case, nor was it the factual point of the study.
 
"I have no problem with this article, except for the fact that people will misrepresent the data to mean that a DA trigger is no safer than an SA in ALL situations"

I don't think anyone has said that...although there is plenty of room for discussion...although the term ALL throws a wrench into any subjective discussion:D

The point of the whole exercise was to guard against complacency...and to not trust that DA trigger too much...because perceived safety can make us careless.

For instance...razor sharp knife versus dull training blade.....

Which is handled more "safely":confused:

You don't generally see one instructor toss another one a sharp fixed knofe, but that training blade....no worries there....oops...wrong knife...thought it was the orange one:o

I, for one, think there is some merit to the idea that danger makes people careful.....not everyone, but as I said earlier there are some that will never be careful enough

I, for one have been amazed at the actual effort involved in getting a Glock to go bang...

I actually messed around this morning with a G19 on the range and despite some very cavalier gunhandling (with a safe backstop) it only ever went bang when I wanted it to.

This in 25 degree weather and wearing gloves...

And yet there are those that would have us believe that they are an accident waiting to happen.

I submit that there are people that are an accident waiting to happen and anything we do or say to make them feel more comfortable with their poor gunhandling is just fuel for the fire. Telling them that brand X is the perfect weapon for them since they don't want to train is doing them a disservice.

I happen to think that a properly used SA pistol is just as safe as a DA/SA handgun...maybe safer when improperly used...assuming they "do it wrong the right way"

Those guys in the alley could have been stopped by a manual safety...had they chose to employ it

But why argue the point when, in the final analysis , they still had to pull the trigger to make the weapon go bang
 
Why so many here have misunderstoood and re-defined the exercise to have all these other purposes is beyond my understanding.
It was stated that the exercise was designed to test the validity of the assumption that a long hard DA trigger pull would prevent accidental discharges when the gun-bearer is under stress.
It succeeded in providing valid statistical evidence that IF the finger is on the trigger, the long hard DA trigger does not prevent a stressed gun-bearer from accidently flinching or reflexively and unintentionally pulling the trigger.
IT was not about training, not about keeping the finger out of the trigger-guard, not about holstering until ready to fire, not about all those other mentioned things.
 
Finger was kept "in register"? Never heard that term before. Something else to be worried about. Excuse me while I try to find where my finger should be "in register".
 
Apparently NOT alwaya done. Fairfax County, VA police SWAT officer described as highly trained accidently killed a suspect with a HK USP45 this week.
Click to expand...
And this also shows how Fairfax has a nice variety of firearms...Police use Sig 9mms with Federal 9BPLE, Sheriffs use .40 caliber Glocks, and FXPD SWAT uses HK USP .45s
 
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