TylerD45ACP
New member
Hardin was a gambler at the end of his rope when killed. He made a fatal mistake of having his back to the door.
Old School Gunology Still Valid?
- Thread starter Eagle0711
- Start date
Thanks, all comments appreciated and will be considered. I started with "No Second Place Winner" I followed the directions and could hit a hanging karate gi at 12' with my model 66. I have almost every page covered in notes. Bill Jordan killed a lot of folks but refused to talk about those experiences. He was badmouthed by a gunwriter a couple years ago. I'll bet if Mr. jordan were alive that wouldn't have happened. Mr. Jordan died of natural causes well into his 80s. He must have done something right. I know that he didn't care for 1911s or the Modern Technique. I'm sure that he is missed by many. Some of you younger fellows may want to look into his life, it's very intresting. Thanks,Lyle
I think there is plenty to be learned from the old school, and not much that needs to be thrown out. But there are a few things.
shooting for the gut. It might work sometimes, but it might not. Its not a fight stopping shot if you are up against a determined adversary. For that matter neither is a heart shot. It could take between 15 and 300 seconds for a heart thats stopped working to impede the body its in. Thats plenty of time to shoot back. I bet all of you can empty a 30 round AR mag in fifteen seconds, much less a fifteen round pistol mag.
So the biggest problem I have with the Old School is the idea of drawing fast and firing one shot. One shot might be enough but it might not, so train to fire lots. Train to move, because even after you have delivered lethal shots the fight could go on long enough to kill you.
One handed shooting is great and you might have to do it. Practice it. But know that its just as fast to shoot with two hands and the sights, and you most often will be able to if you practice good tactics, like creating and maintaining distance.
I have seen videos of cops and bgs at bad breath distance pulling guns and firing away, when the cops draw would have been no slower at all if he had been retreating and using both hands.
shooting for the gut. It might work sometimes, but it might not. Its not a fight stopping shot if you are up against a determined adversary. For that matter neither is a heart shot. It could take between 15 and 300 seconds for a heart thats stopped working to impede the body its in. Thats plenty of time to shoot back. I bet all of you can empty a 30 round AR mag in fifteen seconds, much less a fifteen round pistol mag.
So the biggest problem I have with the Old School is the idea of drawing fast and firing one shot. One shot might be enough but it might not, so train to fire lots. Train to move, because even after you have delivered lethal shots the fight could go on long enough to kill you.
One handed shooting is great and you might have to do it. Practice it. But know that its just as fast to shoot with two hands and the sights, and you most often will be able to if you practice good tactics, like creating and maintaining distance.
I have seen videos of cops and bgs at bad breath distance pulling guns and firing away, when the cops draw would have been no slower at all if he had been retreating and using both hands.
It seems to me that there is a lot of good, highly valuable information and tactics from the "old school" that still applies today. Practice, practice, practice, hit what you are shooting at and don't stop until the threat is over.
I always cringe a little when we start comparing ourselves to what I term as "freaks with guns", not meaning it in a bad way just that many of those folks are so far above the average shooter in skill level that its like comparing my jumpshot to Michael Jordan. When we try to emulate folks like Wes Hardin, Bill Jordan, Farmer Peel or whomever we forget to work the basics until they are second nature.
To me if you can hit that target every time from an aiming stance, then work up to a slow draw and hit then you can work up to faster drills. A slower draw and a solid killing shot is much more important than a lightning fast shot that misses repeatedly at 10 yards or less. I suspect there have been many a person killed in combat situations by the slower shooter simply because he took that extra little bit of time and didn't miss.
Also those old veterans of multiple gunfights leaned that they had to stay in the fight and finish it, I doubt if I would have the testicular fortitude to stand and calmly place my shots well while bullets we being sent my way by someonew who wanted me dead.
Veterans who have seen combat are a different breed, my father was a WWII veteran of battles in the Aleutian Islands and the thought of gunsmoke, people shooting at him and blood didn't bother him in fact on those few occasions where there was possibilities he actually got what I would describe as stone cold, but he could get excited at the possibility of hunting quail or squirrels.
Having said all that someone who can draw and place those shots correctly in 1 1/2 seconds will beat guys like me who will do it in 3 seconds. But I don't think there are lot of people whom I might ever need to shoot that are going to be quick draw experts, at least I certainly hope not.
I always cringe a little when we start comparing ourselves to what I term as "freaks with guns", not meaning it in a bad way just that many of those folks are so far above the average shooter in skill level that its like comparing my jumpshot to Michael Jordan. When we try to emulate folks like Wes Hardin, Bill Jordan, Farmer Peel or whomever we forget to work the basics until they are second nature.
To me if you can hit that target every time from an aiming stance, then work up to a slow draw and hit then you can work up to faster drills. A slower draw and a solid killing shot is much more important than a lightning fast shot that misses repeatedly at 10 yards or less. I suspect there have been many a person killed in combat situations by the slower shooter simply because he took that extra little bit of time and didn't miss.
Also those old veterans of multiple gunfights leaned that they had to stay in the fight and finish it, I doubt if I would have the testicular fortitude to stand and calmly place my shots well while bullets we being sent my way by someonew who wanted me dead.
Veterans who have seen combat are a different breed, my father was a WWII veteran of battles in the Aleutian Islands and the thought of gunsmoke, people shooting at him and blood didn't bother him in fact on those few occasions where there was possibilities he actually got what I would describe as stone cold, but he could get excited at the possibility of hunting quail or squirrels.
Having said all that someone who can draw and place those shots correctly in 1 1/2 seconds will beat guys like me who will do it in 3 seconds. But I don't think there are lot of people whom I might ever need to shoot that are going to be quick draw experts, at least I certainly hope not.
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aarondhgraham
New member
Hello panfisher,,,
Interesting narrative,,,
I would have enjoyed reading it more if you would have broken up your paragraphs every now and then.
Those long blocks of unbroken text are very difficult to read.
I'm not ragging on you my friend,,,
Just suggesting you could use the "return" key a bit more.
.
Interesting narrative,,,
I would have enjoyed reading it more if you would have broken up your paragraphs every now and then.
Those long blocks of unbroken text are very difficult to read.
I'm not ragging on you my friend,,,
Just suggesting you could use the "return" key a bit more.
.
The advise about the narritive is duly noted and I'll do better, but I don't even know what the return key is.
The post about firing one shot is a good point. A state policeman confronted a person who turned out to be a bank robber in a rest 9 miles south of Grants Pass a few years back. It was dark and drizzling rain and the robber pulled a J-Frame when the officer asked to see his I.D. The robber made the cop kneel and while doing so he drew hie 40 S&W Glock and shot the robber side ways just under the arm pit. The robber got off one round and hit the officer just above his vest. The robber ran uphill and made 124' before collapsed and died. The policeman under went surgery, but he still carries the bullet in his neck and is still on duty.
Thankfully it turned out well, but what if the robber had decided to make more of a fight he could have unleashed the remaining 4 rounds, and the distancs was only a few feet seperating the two. If you think about this there are a lot of lessons to be learned. You can draw your own conclusions, but the 96% one shot stop deal is something I'd forget.
Thanks all for your comments, they are very intresting and informative. Lyle
The post about firing one shot is a good point. A state policeman confronted a person who turned out to be a bank robber in a rest 9 miles south of Grants Pass a few years back. It was dark and drizzling rain and the robber pulled a J-Frame when the officer asked to see his I.D. The robber made the cop kneel and while doing so he drew hie 40 S&W Glock and shot the robber side ways just under the arm pit. The robber got off one round and hit the officer just above his vest. The robber ran uphill and made 124' before collapsed and died. The policeman under went surgery, but he still carries the bullet in his neck and is still on duty.
Thankfully it turned out well, but what if the robber had decided to make more of a fight he could have unleashed the remaining 4 rounds, and the distancs was only a few feet seperating the two. If you think about this there are a lot of lessons to be learned. You can draw your own conclusions, but the 96% one shot stop deal is something I'd forget.
Thanks all for your comments, they are very intresting and informative. Lyle
TylerD45ACP
New member
Yep. Fight or Flight We have the instinct like when a dangerous animal is shot. It can run off in full bore or come charging in your direction deciding youd make a nice lunch 
. Luckily the criminal chose flight instead of fight. Like you said if he did he could have easily killed the officer.
. Luckily the criminal chose flight instead of fight. Like you said if he did he could have easily killed the officer.Wyatt Earp put it this way, "Take your time quickly." That might not be the exact words he used but it was very close to that.
A bit of trivia about Wyatt Earp. He never killed anyone before the OK Corral shootout. And by the way, it didn't happen in the OK Corral. It actually took place in front of Fly's Photography Studio. Somehow though "Shootout at Fly's Photography Studio" just doesn't have the ring to it that "Shootout at OK Corral" has.
Also Wyatt was never wounded. He had bullet holes in his clothing but no wounds.
A bit of trivia about Wyatt Earp. He never killed anyone before the OK Corral shootout. And by the way, it didn't happen in the OK Corral. It actually took place in front of Fly's Photography Studio. Somehow though "Shootout at Fly's Photography Studio" just doesn't have the ring to it that "Shootout at OK Corral" has.
Also Wyatt was never wounded. He had bullet holes in his clothing but no wounds.
TylerD45ACP
New member
Win 73 good input. Thats all totally true. When Wyatt fought Curly Bill he was missed so many times. He had buckshot and rounds through his clothes.
not to change the topic of the thread, but I'm pretty sure Wyatt killed a guy in dodge city. Similar to the scene in the costner movie, though not as dramatice. The guy was riding through shooting and wyatt hit him in the arm or shoulder, a wound that the man died of several days later. not a gunfight exactly since I don't think he was shooting at wyatt, but earps couldn't just let him shoot up the town.
Hitting a guy on a riding horse anywhere seems quite the feat to me.
Coule have been that other deputies responded and fired and so wyatt may not deserve "credit" for the shot. I believe this incident is in the Lake biography, but its been a while and Im not sure.
In terms of the old school lets remember that before Bonnie and Clyde Frank Hamer was a texas ranger when the west still wild enough. He has a record of an unbelievable number of "kills" and on several occasions defeated multiple opponents. I believe he was a revolver man, carrying a single action with a name and perhaps later a large bore service revolver.
also according to his biography the bonnie and clyde ambush went down differently, with Hamer showing himself and ordering them to stop the car, and when clyde went for his gun Hamer shot him through the windshield with his Remington automatic rifle(not a BAR), at which point the rest of the force opened up turning the love-birds to swiss cheese.
Another time this old hand was shot at by a man who came to kill him with a 45 automatic. The gun jammed and Hamer claims he realized this because he didn't hear the spent carteidgw case hit the ground and so he beat the attacker sensless rather than draw and kill him.
That one might be more legend than fiction although the attack itself is documented.
Hamer might perhaps be the most over looked of the old time gunfighters, his prowess most noticed long before the bonnie and clyde fiasco. Im not entirely sure he wasn't brought out of retirement to deal with them.
Hitting a guy on a riding horse anywhere seems quite the feat to me.
Coule have been that other deputies responded and fired and so wyatt may not deserve "credit" for the shot. I believe this incident is in the Lake biography, but its been a while and Im not sure.
In terms of the old school lets remember that before Bonnie and Clyde Frank Hamer was a texas ranger when the west still wild enough. He has a record of an unbelievable number of "kills" and on several occasions defeated multiple opponents. I believe he was a revolver man, carrying a single action with a name and perhaps later a large bore service revolver.
also according to his biography the bonnie and clyde ambush went down differently, with Hamer showing himself and ordering them to stop the car, and when clyde went for his gun Hamer shot him through the windshield with his Remington automatic rifle(not a BAR), at which point the rest of the force opened up turning the love-birds to swiss cheese.
Another time this old hand was shot at by a man who came to kill him with a 45 automatic. The gun jammed and Hamer claims he realized this because he didn't hear the spent carteidgw case hit the ground and so he beat the attacker sensless rather than draw and kill him.
That one might be more legend than fiction although the attack itself is documented.
Hamer might perhaps be the most over looked of the old time gunfighters, his prowess most noticed long before the bonnie and clyde fiasco. Im not entirely sure he wasn't brought out of retirement to deal with them.
For reasons not applicable to this discussion I studied the legends of the “Old West Gun Slinger” many years ago; and also studied the writings by those persons detailing the facts of the “Old West”. I learned there seemed to be a great difference between legend and fact.
And that is:
The quick-draw shoot out of the Old West is a myth. There were a few, very few, instances of it and even in those cases it’s vague if the fight happened that way at the time or in the later telling about it.
Almost all of the “big” outlaws never got into a quick-draw fight; they knew better. Also, they weren’t interested in a gun fight in the middle of the street; banks didn’t keep their money in the middle of the street. Jesse James & Co. had a mid-street shoot out which they never intended and it ended their career.
The quick-draw shoot out in the middle of Main Street at high noon was something made popular by writers Ned Buntline and Zane Grey, who claimed to have been “out west” but such claims are suspect. However, it made a good story and later writers glommed onto it and have perpetuated it in their novels and movies.
Very few persons carried a handgun. They couldn’t afford one. If they had the money for a gun they bought a rifle or a shotgun.
John Wesley Hardin was probably the only real “gun slinger” as portrayed in the novels and movies of today. He is supposed to have actually needed the quick-draw only a few times but in most cases his opponent didn’t know what was coming until it was too late. He used the cross-draw and did not have a “regulation” holster, at least this was the case in his later years.
Yes, others had the “name” of “gun slinger” but in almost every case their gun had already been “slung” before the “slinging” started.
I am suspicious of any story about “gun slinging” in the Old West unless there is an available account which is current for that time and still suspect that even then a newspaper knew a “spiced up” story sold more papers than did fact.
We, today, are more apt to need the quick-draw against the mugger in the C-Store parking lot than did those guys of the “Old West”.
Okay, so they didn’t have C-Stores in those days.
And that is:
The quick-draw shoot out of the Old West is a myth. There were a few, very few, instances of it and even in those cases it’s vague if the fight happened that way at the time or in the later telling about it.
Almost all of the “big” outlaws never got into a quick-draw fight; they knew better. Also, they weren’t interested in a gun fight in the middle of the street; banks didn’t keep their money in the middle of the street. Jesse James & Co. had a mid-street shoot out which they never intended and it ended their career.
The quick-draw shoot out in the middle of Main Street at high noon was something made popular by writers Ned Buntline and Zane Grey, who claimed to have been “out west” but such claims are suspect. However, it made a good story and later writers glommed onto it and have perpetuated it in their novels and movies.
Very few persons carried a handgun. They couldn’t afford one. If they had the money for a gun they bought a rifle or a shotgun.
John Wesley Hardin was probably the only real “gun slinger” as portrayed in the novels and movies of today. He is supposed to have actually needed the quick-draw only a few times but in most cases his opponent didn’t know what was coming until it was too late. He used the cross-draw and did not have a “regulation” holster, at least this was the case in his later years.
Yes, others had the “name” of “gun slinger” but in almost every case their gun had already been “slung” before the “slinging” started.
I am suspicious of any story about “gun slinging” in the Old West unless there is an available account which is current for that time and still suspect that even then a newspaper knew a “spiced up” story sold more papers than did fact.
We, today, are more apt to need the quick-draw against the mugger in the C-Store parking lot than did those guys of the “Old West”.
Okay, so they didn’t have C-Stores in those days.
TylerD45ACP
New member
Wyatt could not be hit with bullets. He had a bullet proof force field Seriously though he had so many close hits in his hat, jacket, pants, shirt. I dont think he was ever hit was he? He walked in the open Texas Jack (I think) said it was one of the most bold things he ever saw. Wyatt was ****** about Morgan and went into the open Curly missing 2 00B at him. Wyatt returning with 2 of his own, but they connected. He was the coolest lawman,the kinda lawman Doc Holiday, and Bat Masterson.
Seriously though he had so many close hits in his hat, jacket, pants, shirt. I dont think he was ever hit was he? He walked in the open Texas Jack (I think) said it was one of the most bold things he ever saw. Wyatt was ****** about Morgan and went into the open Curly missing 2 00B at him. Wyatt returning with 2 of his own, but they connected. He was the coolest lawman,the kinda lawman Doc Holiday, and Bat Masterson.Speaking of OLD School, I got to mean Gary Anderson this weekend. He teaches the CMP GSM Master Instructors school. Talk about hard holders, he has more Olympic (as well as other medals) Medals then any American in history. Also still holds the World Record NRA Offhand 200 yard record set in the early 80s I believe.
He and his wife were gracious enough to have us out to his home for drinks and adores. Wonderful guy with a wonder wife. It was a Museum of Shooting Metals and other shooting paraphernalia.
He and his wife were gracious enough to have us out to his home for drinks and adores. Wonderful guy with a wonder wife. It was a Museum of Shooting Metals and other shooting paraphernalia.
Double Naught Spy
New member
In the 1950s, my pop became a police officer. He was taught a one-handed combat shooting style that put the shooter in a crouched shooting position that looked like the shooter had just rolled a bowling ball (with the trailing leg NOT swung out to the side). He explained to me that he learned that in a gun fight, it was important to be the first person to shoot, thereby establishing dominance in the fight. While not ideal, it wasn't considered a problem if the first shot or shots went into the ground.
Establishing a firing dominance in a fight was thought (and apparently sometimes was) to be sufficient to give officers an advantage or even win fights.
So have shots to the foot, leg, shoulder, and arm. That doesn't make them necessarily reliable targets for that purpose, however.
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A lot of styles, strageties, and tactics were used in the past and many are still valid today. Many are not.