I've been studying older history books. Dark Angel of Texas by author Leon Metz which is about John Wesely Hardin, The Life of John Wesely Hardin, As Written by Himself, and Handgunners Guide By Chic Gaylord. Mr. Hardin is from the late 1800s and Mr. Gaylord the 1950s era. What's important is older techniques as compared to today. Gaylord in the Chap; Close Combat Shooting says that Special Agents for the U.S. Treasury Dept. had to be able draw and fire 5 shots into the kill zone in 3 sec. at 7 yards, or draw and fire a killing shot in no more than one half sec. including reaction time. Mr. Gaylord recomend "dropping the dollar" to practice. Draw and snap before the coin hits the floor from the back of your hand will get you close to one half sec. Mr. Hardin according to his land lady, Annie Williams practiced drawing and firing daily. She said that he was very fast and that his guns sounded like " rattle machine" he always jumped to the side before firing, and I know that John Farnum who is a well respected trainner of modern times recomends this. These older methods used point shooting as the gun came level from a strong side carry. Since most gunfights occur at 3-20' I'm going to work this into my trainning regimen. A word of caution is in order using live ammo and fastdrawning so don't use anylive ammo until your confident of your abilities. Single Shot or D.A. revolvers were used, but I see no reason any gun could not be used. I've worked on this using plastic cases and bullets powered by a primer and my max. distance is 12'. A shot to their gut or pelvic area stopped many of an old boy. Do you think that this is another tool in our bag of skills and valid today. I'm intrested in your opinion. Thanks, Lyle
Old School Gunology Still Valid?
- Thread starter Eagle0711
- Start date
I like to study the old stuff also. I've read and do believe that handgun fighting has remained relatively unchanged over the past 150 years. Most of the time, it is going to come to down to a few quick shots from either side at close range. It doesn't matter whether or not the pistol is made of steel or mostly black plastic.
The key thing here is to study the details and learn what you can from them. There are lessons to learn from the old gunfighters like Hardin and Wild Bill Hickock. The most important of all, and you alluded to it, is to practice as much as possible, under the conditions that you will be carrying and using your pistol. After that, it is a matter of personality and circumstance when it comes time for the real deal.
The key thing here is to study the details and learn what you can from them. There are lessons to learn from the old gunfighters like Hardin and Wild Bill Hickock. The most important of all, and you alluded to it, is to practice as much as possible, under the conditions that you will be carrying and using your pistol. After that, it is a matter of personality and circumstance when it comes time for the real deal.
Wildalaska
Moderator
I have a book from the 1880s that advocates using the middle finger to pull the trigger of the handgun while laying the trigger finger along side the frame of the gun.
WilditriedititworksAlaska ™©2002-2010
WilditriedititworksAlaska ™©2002-2010
Old
Have any of you watched the interview with the Chicago Policeman that has survived 14 gun fights? The link is posted on one of the boards I visit. One thing I found interesting was that he pretty much ended up shooting one handed when the balloon went up. As his other hand was used in shoving things away to hide behind etc. (if I remember correctly). He also spoke of "getting low" which I took as "kneeling" or "squatting' (to present a smaller target?). It's surprising how good natured and open he is in the interview. I am a two handed shooter and seldom shoot one handed. I am trying to do more one handed shooting currently. He also is a believer in heavy bullets and head shots. He has little interest in "target" accuracy and only practices at 7 yards (I think). He uses 6" paper plates as targets.
Have any of you watched the interview with the Chicago Policeman that has survived 14 gun fights? The link is posted on one of the boards I visit. One thing I found interesting was that he pretty much ended up shooting one handed when the balloon went up. As his other hand was used in shoving things away to hide behind etc. (if I remember correctly). He also spoke of "getting low" which I took as "kneeling" or "squatting' (to present a smaller target?). It's surprising how good natured and open he is in the interview. I am a two handed shooter and seldom shoot one handed. I am trying to do more one handed shooting currently. He also is a believer in heavy bullets and head shots. He has little interest in "target" accuracy and only practices at 7 yards (I think). He uses 6" paper plates as targets.
One of my favorites was Bill Jordon's NO SECOND PLACE WINNER.
Mainly the ideal of concentrating on drawing and firing one shot, one handed. This was geared more for LE and the practice method I stressed as a LE firearms instructor.
I think too much time is spent on two handed shooting. For the quick shot necessary, as in traffic stops, or at the door of a domestic dispute. Yes two handed shooting is probably better for accuracy, but getting that first shot off while your holding a flashlight, door, ticket book, or what ever in one hand.
If you think about it, how often do you have both hands free.
Yes sir, I think we can learn a lot from these old masters.
Some are good tactics, some of the old methods are just plain fun, How many, after reading Ed McGiven's FAST AND FANCY REVOLVER SHOOTING have practiced......... SHOOTING FROM RUNNING BOARDS.
Mainly the ideal of concentrating on drawing and firing one shot, one handed. This was geared more for LE and the practice method I stressed as a LE firearms instructor.
I think too much time is spent on two handed shooting. For the quick shot necessary, as in traffic stops, or at the door of a domestic dispute. Yes two handed shooting is probably better for accuracy, but getting that first shot off while your holding a flashlight, door, ticket book, or what ever in one hand.
If you think about it, how often do you have both hands free.
Yes sir, I think we can learn a lot from these old masters.
Some are good tactics, some of the old methods are just plain fun, How many, after reading Ed McGiven's FAST AND FANCY REVOLVER SHOOTING have practiced......... SHOOTING FROM RUNNING BOARDS.
My daily carry is an SAA semi-clone, as most know. I've dropped the hammer reach down to 19th-century levels by swapping to a SuperBlackhawk hammer, which based on my measurements matches actual 1st-gen Colt ergonomics.
I believe in mixing modern and 19th century shooting techniques. I'm a sighted shooter, but I strongly believe in being able to shoot one handed. I believe the first shot out of the holster is fractionally faster one-handed and at short ranges leaves the other hand free for grappling or whatever.
I also believe in being able to get to the gun with either hand. I carry in either a fanny pack or if it's at all "jacket weather" as it is over 2/3rds of the year in Tucson, a high-ride, forward crossdraw setup.
I believe in mixing modern and 19th century shooting techniques. I'm a sighted shooter, but I strongly believe in being able to shoot one handed. I believe the first shot out of the holster is fractionally faster one-handed and at short ranges leaves the other hand free for grappling or whatever.
I also believe in being able to get to the gun with either hand. I carry in either a fanny pack or if it's at all "jacket weather" as it is over 2/3rds of the year in Tucson, a high-ride, forward crossdraw setup.
TimberWolf7.62
Inactive
For one thing, those guys back then didn't have any dumb-a$$ed ideas like turning the pistol sideways!!
Another admirer of Bill Jordan's "No Second Place Winner" here. For anyone serious about training for fast draw and fire in a gunfight it is a must read IMO.
I've also read both of the Wes Hardin books mentioned in the OP. In my teen years I admired these people but into adulthood I came to realize that they were just homicidal hoodlums and no better than your garden variety street gang member doing a drive by nowadays. Just IMHO.
I've also read both of the Wes Hardin books mentioned in the OP. In my teen years I admired these people but into adulthood I came to realize that they were just homicidal hoodlums and no better than your garden variety street gang member doing a drive by nowadays. Just IMHO.
Single or Double Action ,One Hand Point Shooting is a challange, but when you half way master it. you can surprise youself.
I started with a Single Six and some Coke cans went from there.
My favorite Jacket Carry is a Single Action AWA 45LC Sherrif's Model in a Holliday Chest Rig .
I started with a Single Six and some Coke cans went from there.
My favorite Jacket Carry is a Single Action AWA 45LC Sherrif's Model in a Holliday Chest Rig .
As much as I would like to carry my Beretta Stampede with it's beautiful color case hardened frame and beautiful blueing job, . . . my 1911 holds a total of 9, and with only one extra mag, I have 17 rounds on one reload, . . . one less than two reloads with the Beretta.
I'll stick to my semi-auto, . . . but I love shooting and practicing with my SAA replica.
May God bless,
Dwight
I'll stick to my semi-auto, . . . but I love shooting and practicing with my SAA replica.
May God bless,
Dwight
Now don't be too hard on old cousin Wes. He said he never shot anybody who didn't need shooting. Besides the family could forgive that minor little character flaw of killing forty people. But at the end of his life he did something that we just couldn't forgive. He went beyond the pale. He became a lawyer!!!
I would not necessarily call that stuff "old style." The principle difference in then and now is semi-auto pistols and a lot of wasted shots. Point shooting, with one hand, was and still is, an integral part of handgun shooting. It is a skill that could save your life today as well as it did one hundred fifty years ago.
There is today, a lot of "science" and very little experience, behind the theories and tactics being taught for handgun defense. Having the skill, alertness and drill to have your firearm out before you need to fire; pointing and shooting accurately with one hand, while you are getting to cover, can make all the difference in survival or death. No "modern" techniques can surpass those tactics; nor can spraying seventeen inaccurate shots over the landscape. I consider a quick draw a failed tactic because if you have to draw like that, you were not anticipating the event in time.
There is today, a lot of "science" and very little experience, behind the theories and tactics being taught for handgun defense. Having the skill, alertness and drill to have your firearm out before you need to fire; pointing and shooting accurately with one hand, while you are getting to cover, can make all the difference in survival or death. No "modern" techniques can surpass those tactics; nor can spraying seventeen inaccurate shots over the landscape. I consider a quick draw a failed tactic because if you have to draw like that, you were not anticipating the event in time.
TylerD45ACP
New member
They were awesome I wanted to live in the old west. However my favorite time period I wish I was in right now would be the 1930's 
g.willikers
New member
The interview that Mes228 referred to might have been proarmspodcast.com, number 52
Maybe you should learn old style bushwacking.
Hardin may have practiced daily, but John Selman stalked and shot him from behind. These “old” gunfighters were about killing, not fair game.
A Colt SAA attributed to John Selman is located in the El Paso Historical Museum. With it is a letter from the donor, a man who knew Selman and the revolver. The trigger guard has notches for “white men” that Selman killed, Mexicans were not counted, and for “significant” men (Bass Outlaw for one) Selman drew arrows on the cylinders which fired the fatal shot.
Selman would display his pistol, the markings, and reminisce about the men he killed.
Imagine the mentality of a guy like that.
Hardin was a psychopath. I read his book, he was a psychopath pure and simple, he was forced in to it, nothing was his fault.
The guys you should worry about are going to be like psychopaths like Hardin and Selman. They are not going to give you warning and they are not going to give you a chance. It will not be a fair fight.
Situational awareness will be more important to survival than pure gunfighting skills.
At our range you can practice draw and shoot.
I do draw some strange looks because I practice draw and shoot one handed.
As I draw I will turn my shoulder toward the target and step back and sometimes I’ll drop to my knees.
The Young Guns don’t seem to practice very much. IMO.
The last LEO shootout we had here the perp shot and killed his father with a .22 rifle.
5 LEOs showed up as the perp was walking street. A gunfight broke out. More than 50 shots were fired. 3 LEOs were wounded and the perp was killed.
I do draw some strange looks because I practice draw and shoot one handed.
As I draw I will turn my shoulder toward the target and step back and sometimes I’ll drop to my knees.
The Young Guns don’t seem to practice very much. IMO.
The last LEO shootout we had here the perp shot and killed his father with a .22 rifle.
5 LEOs showed up as the perp was walking street. A gunfight broke out. More than 50 shots were fired. 3 LEOs were wounded and the perp was killed.