OLD RIFLES [Pics]

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shooter954

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Hey everybody, just looking for some general info on two bolt action rifles that were handed down to me by my grandfather. I want to say the larger rifle is from either WWI or WWII, and I'm not too sure about the smaller one. So basically what I want to know is:

1.) What type of gun?
2.) Is it possible to get it in "shooting condition"?
3.) Any historical significance?
4.) What are they worth in this condition?
5.) What are they worth cleaned up?
***I WOULD NEVER SELL THEM***
[These will be passed down to my son(s) one day, God willing]
6.) Are they accurate?
And any other general info/stories/pics of yours.....








Pictures of second (larger) rifle coming in next post
 
I am no expert, but I think it's a WW II era Italian Carcano rifle. Made famous as the rifle supposedly used by Lee Harvey Oswald to shoot JFK in 1963. Usually seen in 6.5mm and 7.5mm Carcano I am not sure if ammo is still available. It appears to have been cut down or "sporterized" at some point. It will have minimal monetary value but as you say, could be cleaned up into an interesting wall hanger and a keepsake.

I am pretty sure the second rifle is a 1903 A3 Springfield. The 1903 was one of two standard U.S. Army rifles in WW I (the 1917 Enfield being the other) and is highly sought after by collectors if in original condition. Many have been altered to use as hunting rifles and these lose most of their monetary value.

The A3 variation was used in WW II until replaced by the M1 Garand. Some were also modified into sniper rifles with scopes. The A3 was rougher and less refined in finish to cut cost and increase production. Not as valuable as the original 1903 model...unless it's the rare sniper version then it sells for thousands of dollars.
 
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I am not very familiar with military rifles but the first one looks kinda like a Mosin Nagant, if it is it is a 7.62x54 cartridge.
 
I do know that one, I have one it is a 03-A3 chambered for the 30-06. Its a good one too, its a Remington and they shoot pretty good, or the one I have does, for a old gun.
 
2nd one is definitely a 1903-A3. It will be chambered in 30-06. It looks to be unaltered (which is a good thing). Finish looks rough from lack of care . I would remove the stock and work the metal really well with extra fine steel wool lubricated with any good oil.
 
Yes, the 1903 is in 30-'06 being the rifle for which the cartridge was first designed. It is not blued but is "parkerized" meaning the greenish tint to the metal is correct. These are excellent shooters and once cleaned up would make a perfect inheritance rifle.

PS: Cartridges were loaded from the top using "stripper clips" that held 5 rounds. Of course, they can also be loaded one at a time.
 
The first rifle is a Mannlicher- Carcano in either 6.5x52 IIRC or 7.35. but I forget the MM's for the case length. I had one a very long time ago when they were being sold for chump change. IIRC, I paid something like $9.95 for mine in 7.35.
Kicked like a mule, was very inaccurate and I didn't keep it very long.

The second rifle is a 1903A3 Splringfield 30-06. I may have either a ywo groove of four groove barrel depending on what year it was mad. IIRC they started those modified versions of the 1903 in ariund late 1942 to early 1943. The early 03A3's had four groove barrels and later gun had the two groove barrel. Some of the mods were stamped parts and the two groove barrel. THis was accepted in order to speed production and reduce costs. AFAIK, Remington was the company to come up with the mods but I'm not all that sure if the other people making the rifle did as well. Other than I have a rather clean 1903A3 with four groove barrel with a 1943 acceptance stamp on the barrel I actually not delved too deeply into the history of the rifle.
Paul B.
 
1) Carcano and Springfield
2) Springfield, definitely, Carcano, yes, but not much in the way of looks
3) Springfield, Yes, Carcano, yes, but little.
4) Springfield, I'd like to say maybe $400, although I'm not an apprasier. Very little for the Carcano, sub $100 maybe.
5) Springfield could be $6-700 cleaned up, you'd be so far in the hole w/ the carcano I don't want to say.
6) Depends on bore condition. Springfields are inherently pretty accurate, Carcano isn't known for good accuracy.

If you get the Carcano cleaned up, it could be a good shooter. It would make it look presentable. It would be a lot to get the barrel turned, the rust removed from all the parts and to get it reblued. Maybe $200 or so.

Whatever you do, Good luck.

Regards,

-Mo.
 
Also with the Springfield, have the serial number checked...early serial
numbers had weak receivers making them unsafe to shoot in later life.
 
First one is a carcano, go to yesterdays weapons forums and read the italian guns section it will help ID a lot.
 
I agree on the 1st rifle being a 'sporterized' Carcano, and I would like to throw in a word of caution.
If you were to find some ammunition for it, I recommend that you do not shoot it. The rear of the bolt assembly has a threaded rod that is actually the back end of the firing pin if memory serves. You will find a knurled round 'nut' on it at the rear of the bolt. This 'nut' has a small crescent cut on the underside of it that a round spring loaded cylindrical pin half fits into as a 'keeper' so to speak. This is supposed to hold the 'nut' on the back of the threaded rod preventing it from backing off under recoil. This design is at best unreliable, and has been documented as allowing the knurled 'nut' to fly off to the rear when fired at a velocity directly proportional to the bullet leaving the front of the barrel through the part of your face directly behind the bolt.
I own a carbine version of this rifle that I bought from a friend when I was about 16 along with an original box of military surplus ammunition. I actually shot it quite a bit before I learned about the risks. Norma did offer ammunition for it many moons ago. But I would strongly discourage shooting it, or continuing to shoot it if you ever have. Cool conversation piece, never any real value, I think I paid $60 for mine in about 1979, but cool none the less. Just my two cents.
If I recall, there were a half dozen different variations of the Carcano and I only own the shorter carbine version. It is possible that your bolt design is different than mine and not necessarily unsafe to shoot. Here is a photo of the back of the bolt detailing the 'nut' and spring loaded pin so you can verify that is in fact what you have.

IMG_20150306_200758029.jpg
 
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There are some real experts here that will have more accurate information in greater detail than has been posted so far. I am not that expert. However, I can say, that your Springfield is an A3 version from the WWII era, and not a concern of the, "low number", situation. These were made with time-saving changes, where several parts were were stamped instead of milled, like the triggerguard, for example. So, yes, they were, "cheaper", than the original 1903. But they weren't inferior. In fact, they had a much superior rear sight, in my opinion. I don't think they were designed to be cheaper at all. Remington requested, and got permission, to change the rifle in very specific ways, for the sake of being able to produce more rifles in less time to meet the needs of the War that America was compelled to fight even though we weren't really ready for it at the beginning. At the onset, Germany probably had the greatest army and airforce the world had ever seen and doubtless the best submarines. By December 8th, I would guess that the empire of Japan, had the best navy in the world. By 1943, the outcome of the war was only certain in the minds of those who needed to believe in victory. At that time, America and Britain had the best bombers in the world.....Meanwhile, the US 8th Airforce was being devasted in the skies over Europe. With a 75% casualty rate, they would lose more men than the US marines did..... Germany was winning the air-war. Things would have to change,...and quickly!
America and our allies needed more of everything as quickly as possible. The 1903-A3 was born of WWII. I want one.....
 
the first gun you pictured is an Italian Carcano of some variety. they were used by the Italians from 1891 until shortly following WWII. they came in two different calibers, 6.5x52mm and 7.35mm, the 6.5 being the more common of the two. regardless of which it's chambered in, ammo is almost non existent and reloading is a pain because the italians chose to use bullet diameters which were not fielded by any other nation so while all of the 6.5mm reloading components out there are made for .264 bores, the italians require a .268 bore and while everyone else chose 308-312 diameter for their 30 caliber cartridges, the italians chose .299 for their 7.35mm. that carcano was sporterized(cut down to make easier to hunt with). it is no longer original but would not be difficult to restore to military configuration. in as is condition it's worth about $125 to 150. if you restored it it would probably be worth about $275 or so and the stock would likely cost more than the recouped value. I would leave it as grampa intended.

the second rifle is a US springfield model 1903A3, circa WWII. it is still in original condition and assuming it's parts matching they generally sell for around $800. they were a cost cutting stopgap measure. even though the US had officially adopted the M1 garand as their service rifle prior to WWII, they didn't have enough of them to go around so remington(and later smith corona) modified the existing springfield design with new sights and a lot of stamped parts instead of milled to make them faster to produce in order to put as many rifles in as many hands as possible. chambered in 30-06 so very easy to find ammo for. they generally saw very short service lives so many are generally good shooters and often times bring home a lot of medals from vintage military rifle competitions.

both look pretty rusty though. the spots you see on the exposed metal is just the beginning, a lot of times if you take them apart, the areas covered up by the wood look 10 times worse. I would have a gunsmith go ever them to make sure they are safe to shoot. sometimes it just takes an afternoon of running cleaning patches through and oiling the bejeezes out of them to get rid of the rust and help make a sewerpipe shootable again, other times it's better to just keep them as wall hangers and pass them down.
 
I would clean both up. 0000 steel wool and oil on the metal. The first would probably get put on a shelf. The 03-A3 I would check the bore after cleaning up, Make sure there are no blockages and then pick up a box of 30-06 ammo and test it out.

My dad and brother both have one and someday I hope to own one too.
 
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