Old cartridge firing designs. Care to name some?

P

Pond James Pond

New member
So my investigation into gun types that are not under the restriction of the national firearms laws here have yielded fruit. Some bitter, some not so.

Basically, I can buy any gun as long as it was made before 1870, or is based on a design from before 1870.

I had thought this would limit me to muzzle-loaders, but actually this could include cartridge guns too. That is the good news.

The bad news is that because this gun would not require a permit, it also means I would not have the very document needed to buy ammo or controlled components such as powder and primers.

In other words, I'd be buying an ornament. A fully functional one, but an ornament all the same.

I am disappointed, but not surprised as I had thought this may be the case.

However, I now have another field of potential guns to buy: lever actions (provided they are old enough!), such as Henry or Winchester, or perhaps some single shots!! :D

What I'd like to know is this:

Which cartridge rifles were designed before 1870 and what where their chamberings?

As I can't fire anything, the chambering should not be such an issue, provided the design is old enough, but I'd rather know. If ever asked to provide proof, it might be difficult to justify a Winchester 1866 in 300 Blackout!! :eek:
 
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The 1860 Henry and 1866 Winchester were chambered for .44 Henry Flat rimfire. Shootable reproductions are commonly in .44-40, although there were some 1866 lookalikes in .357 Magnum. Uberti made some authentic reproductions in .44 Henry; functional but not shootable because there has not been any ammunition made for it in many many years.

The Spencer is an 1860s design for one of several slightly different "No 56" rimfire cartridges. I knew a chap who bought one from a farmer for $10 - in the 1950s - because he could no longer find ammunition. Modern shootable reproductions are in a centerfire version and some are cobbled up for revolver cartridges.

There were a number of good single shot rifles designed and built before 1870, such as the Sharps, Remington, and Ballard. Most are shootable with newly manufactured cartridges even in some otherwise obsolete calibres.


Not trying to land you in gaol, but I have two questions:

Is a firearm of pre 1870 DESIGN but post 1870 MANUFACTURE legal for you?

What would be the status of a pre 1870 "decorator" if you owned a later, fully licensed gun of the same calibre? Could you legally shoot your decorator with the later gun's ammunition?
 
A very large number of the firearms you're talking about will be ornaments for the sole reason that they fired rimfire ammunition, and in most cases it's ammunition that's not been manufactured in decades.

Two possibilities for you are British -- the Snider-Enfield conversion, and the Martini-Henry.

The Snider-Enfield was a centerfire cartridge conversion of an earlier muzzle loading rifle.

The Martini-Henry was adopted into British service in 1871, but it was based on designs from the late 1860s.
 
Is a firearm of pre 1870 DESIGN but post 1870 MANUFACTURE legal for you?
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The law states pre-1870 design. So in principle a design from 1869 should pass scrutiny and it seems realistic to say that it would have been produced beyond 1869.

A poster on another, related thread suggested:

...1873 Springfield Trapdoor since it was designed and first issued in 1865/66.
Current copies of the 45/70 cal Carbine are available from companies like Uberti.
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It seems that this design was pre-1870, and shot 45/70 cartridges. If that chambering were part of the initial design that would be perfect as there should be no ambiguity about the age of any aspect of the design, and I could arguably still fire readily available snap-caps in it, even if real ammo is not permitted.

Dry-firing and a bit of make-believe can go a long way!!

Two possibilities for you are British -- the Snider-Enfield conversion, and the Martini-Henry.
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Were they chambered in anything that is still current?
 
The .45-70 cartridge is an 1873 design.
The original 1866 Allin Conversion "Trapdoor" was in .58 rimfire, the first centerfire was the .50-70 of 1870.

The British Snider was .577 caliber, the Martini-Henry .577-450.
While neither is what you would call "current" I would not say unavailable.
 
Hmmmm. If what you say below is true for the States, I think we can categorically say that it is unavailable in Estonia!!

While neither is what you would call "current" I would not say unavailable.
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So the next question is how pedantic are they concerning the clause "replica of a pre-1870 design"?

If the original chambering is part of the "design" criterion, then it looks like they have chosen 1870 as a cut-off date because of the main chamberings before then are all now defunct.

Again, shame as I would not find snap-caps for those. There may be some other options, I suppose, but otherwise it really will be a dust-gathering wall-hanger if I ever decide to get one.
 
There's also an old pin-fire cartridge too...I'm not an expert on
the pin-fire cartridge, but you can Google it. It is an interesting
cartridge.
 
THe problem is what Estonia will allow and how they intrepret things as all the levers are from the Volcanic design and pre 1870. The rolling blocks such as Sharpes you should have no trouble with and you shoul be able to find brass and load with blackpowder.
 
what Estonia will allow and how they intrepret things
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Exactly, and there is no guidance except this clause which describes the exemption criterion for the guns I am looking at:

...firearms which were manufactured before the year 1870 and replicas thereof,
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Vague is one way to describe it. Is it the appearence? The mechanisms within? Or everything down to the location of the screws, hue of the metal and the exact cartridge of the era?

As someone pointed out in the Hawken thread someone started recently, even the Pedersoli Hawkens are an approximation and not spot on, so would they fail that clause because they are not carbon copies?!

What irks me is that here is a gun type that should be completely outside the firearms law, yet I may have to jump through all sorts of hoops to prove that.

I mean, if it is not restricted, don't restrict it: red-tape included!! :rolleyes:

find brass and load with blackpowder.
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The problem is that I can't buy any powder without a firearms licence, and whilst I have licences for my guns, and do reload, none are presently black-powder, so even though I could buy that fine Hawken I had seen, because I cannot access powder that is suitable for it, I can never actually shoot it. The same applies to this.

I'd still like something that could take snap-caps, but I imagine it would be a lot of cash for something to polish and dry-fire!
 
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In lieu of black powder, light loads of pistol or shotgun powder work well. In a case of some 50 grains capacity, around 15, maybe a bit more, of 2400 or equivalent burn rate wouldn't hurt anything.

Sounds like you need some official person of authority to clarify the issue of "date of design" vs. "date of manufacture". Then, you need some clear knowledge about the use of obsolete brass that you could reload--or if replicas are allowed, the use of readily available brass.
 
If you can't buy black powder, why buy a muzzleloader?
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As I explained in the OP, initially I had understood that no aspect of these "dated" designs was restricted. At that time, it seemed like a cool idea. I also thought that it only applied to muzzle loaders as I believed cartridge guns to be much newer in design.

I now know that some cartridge guns are eligible which is nice, but I also now know that powder remains controlled and so if I get anything it shouldn't be to shoot. In other words, ornamental.

Not my preferred out-come, but I'm still not against the idea and so I am widening my search to include the guns I had previously thought excluded.
 
So....You are back to finding an official that gives the OK for their intrepitation. Surely you can not be the only preson that wants to do this in Estonia and someone must have done it.
 
Surely you can not be the only preson that wants to do this in Estonia and someone must have done it.
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You'd think that was the case, but I really don't know. It was ertainly the first time the official I spoke to had had to deal with it: a bit of making it up as they went along! :rolleyes:
 
Might I suggest black powder cartridge conversions of existing military
rifles?

The 1860's was the heyday of conversions. Darned near every country in the world had piles of muzzle loaders, and self contained metallic cartridges
were the new thing. Converting existing arms to breechloaders was popular.

Not all are pre 1870---but there are a LOT--and quite a few originated in
your general area of the globe.

http://militaryrifles.com/
 
remington rolling block

1867, Sweden, Norway and Denmark used them. Estonia is in the EU right so you should be able to buy one from a Swedish/danish dealer

many guns stores have them, not many people get them in Sweden because getting a hunting license for them can be tricky

they came in a variety of calibres

denamark used an 8mm of some sort, and Sweden first had a whopper of a 12mm:D
 
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