Oklahoma pharmacist Jerome Ersland sentenced to life in prison

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When I look at a crime like this I have a lot of different feelings. I personally feel threatened and vulnerable because it highlights the fact that there are criminals out there and in my mind I feel that I could be in store one day when criminals decide to initiate a robbery. I feel anger at the perpetrators because I hold them responsible for my loss of feeling secure. At the same time I feel anger toward society in general.

An incident like this become a focal point for my anger at society because I don’t like the way our society handles poverty, and crime. My personal feelings are that we have programs in this country that seem compassionate and good a first glance, but the programs tend to keep hundreds of thousands of people in the country in a cycle of poverty. My feelings are that my tax money is being used to incent women to have babies – women who are not capable of raising a child, that these children are raised in an environment that tends to perpetuate the past pattern and gives rise to career criminals, an environment that gives rise to the kind of criminals who attacked Ersland.

In some sense I feel like a citizen who protects himself or herself - is acting like my agent to deter potential crime in the future. It's easy to have some part of me that identifies with Ersland. And those feelings can confuse the logic of what actually happened. If I'm strongly identifying with Ersland because of my own fear of criminals, or my anger over how society is dealing with criminals or how society is dealing with poverty. It’s very easy for part of me to start rooting for Ersland and it’s very easy for me to feel hatred toward the criminals. I also can start to have this sense of thinking that – even though I don’t like the fact that the robber was executed – maybe it will send a message to the other criminals out there. If I am strongly identifying with Ersland for these reasons and he ends up getting prosecuted by society – I can get even more feelings of anger because it seems like it’s adding insult to injury. Society hasn’t adequately dealt with the poor underclass and criminals and then society is spending resources on punishing a guy who I identify with on some level. I sometimes have this feeling that if enough citizens arm themselves and “dispose” of enough of these thugs and punks, then the rest of them will either get the message and stop attempting to victimize us, or “we” will just keep at it until they are all finally dead – problem solved either way. But that’s not a rational line of thinking. For one thing, criminals are stupid and they don’t learn either from the mistakes of others or their own mistakes. And criminals are like Doritos, you can kill as many as you like – somewhere, someone is making more of them.

When I look at this situation rationally, I realize that Ersland murdered that robber. And I am left with my anger over the fact that we have laws and policies in place in this country that seem to perpetuate and protect – even nurture criminality in this country while hindering and hampering citizens from protecting themselves. The trick for me is to not let my emotions over it confuse my logic over what happened. And just because someone logically comes down on the side of the verdict in this case – I have to tell myself – they’re not giving validity to all the wrong-headed thinking that we have going on in society the thought that it’s somehow morally better to be a victim than to use a firearm to protect one’s self… If someone agrees to the verdict in this case it’s just a recognition of the truth, that in this case Ersland murdered that robber.
 
A tad bit confused right now. Not trying to start thread war so just bear with me on this please. chadstrickland, in your first post on this you agreed that the first shot was right (which i also agree). You also said the 5 shots after were wrong. Then how after making those statements can you say Ersland was right? Just trying to understand, not offend. And whether we agree with the verdict because of or what we feel in spite of society's ill's, the jury has to come to a verdict based on the rule of law, the facts as Sgt Friday was fond of saying. Again, not trying to criticize anyone's way of thinking. Simply curious how some people can see the the same events so differently:)
 
Posted by C0untZer0: And I am left with my anger over the fact that we have laws and policies in place in this country that seem to perpetuate and protect – even nurture criminality in this country...
We do have a lot of crime, but the only laws I am aware of that "seem to perpetuate and protect – even nurture criminality in this country..." are laws that afford diplomatic immunity to some foreign nationals who take advantage of their status. Perhaps you can cite some other examples.

Regarding policies that do that, there are many, and if one looks at crime reports from El Paso and Phoenix one can see some of the major ones.

...while hindering and hampering citizens from protecting themselves.
That's an issue in California, Connecticut, Delaware, Hawaii, Illinois, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New York, and the District of Columbia, and in colleges and universities.

However, no law in Oklahoma hindered or hampered Ersland from protecting himself--until he became a felon.

Good post, by the way.
 
I think the reason this case sparks so much debate is the life sentence. OK, he murdered the robber- no question about that. But most people can see some attenuating circumstances that make the sentence seem harsh. It is a case of dura lex sed lex.

Had he gotten 20 years, this would not raise as many hackles, IMHO.
 
I don't think it matters, I think there is some venting that goes on in a lamentable situation like this. What does it matter if every single person sees evry single facet of this case logically and that all of their statements are completely consistent logically?

There's a lot to be ****** off about in this incident.

Logically I know that the mother of the deceased has a right under the law to sue for her loss. Probably the coporation behind that pharmacy is going to make her rich... I can't help being angry about that too. She "raised" a fricken hooligan who ran wild on the streets terrorizing society, obviously she had other priorties instead of tending to his upbringing otherwise would he have turned into a murderous theif? But now all of a sudden she's just a grief striken momma - grievin over her po baby... It's hard to say on the one hand that yes - under the law she has a right to sue for her loss and to even say that logically if you understand the law and it is adjudicated properly - she should be compensated, and then also on the other hand have all the emotion that comes behind it in that she's getting rich off of this situation. It's hard to be completely logically consistent in these debates.
 
I can sympathize with the retribution aspect. When our son was in high school,
for whatever reason, some kids found a "target" and went out of their way to make his life miserable.

One day, he was riding his bike around the neighborhood and they caught him and assaulted him.

I had to take him to the ER to get checked out and we filed a police report.

That was not enough. Those same kids started taunting him at school.

I finally got a copy of the police report and it had the name and number of the parents.

I checked the phone book and sure enough, the number was unlisted.

I called the father and he said he would have corrected the behavior of his son had he known what was going on. He asked me why I did not call and I asked him if his phone number was listed. Long pause. . .

I told him that I was fed up with the threats and taunts.

I told him if the threat did not stop, I was going to file charges against his son again. This time it would not be a first offense.

I also told him that I have been around enough to know how the game is played.

I told him that if there were ANY repeats of threats or taunts, I was going to pay him a visit. I also told him that I was going to hold him responsible for any damage done to my property whether done by his son or if done as a result of his son calling in favors from friends to come over and pay me a visit.

I explained to him carefully and in detail that he needed to get the message to his son and to friends of his son that I had had enough and what would happen if he did not.

It was not the smartest thing I have ever done, but the message was delivered and we never had a problem after that.

The code on the street seems to be if you defend yourself, the friends of the would be criminal, take it upon themselves to punish the victim for having the will to resist.

The pharmacist, IMO, was wrong to shoot the perp on the ground after he was down and posed no immediate threat, but I cannot see first degree murder.

I think he will spend some time in prison and will walk after an appeal and retrial.


At least I hope so.

Geetarman:(
 
This is where I'm flabbergasted. If everyone thinks its wrong to have shot the robber after he came back, isn't that the the very definition of 1st degree murder? He thought about it, and did it with malice. That's first degree murder! It wasn't reactionary. It wasn't a crime of passion. It was done with forethought. Why advocate someone getting off early in a case such as this but not with others? All convicted murderers should get off in 20? I ain't buyin it. This was a revenge killing. No better or worse the gang retribution killings which so many of us decry. And just because the robber was black, is that really a need to try to demean how we percieve he or his family talk? In some sort of ebonic slang?
 
Icedog88...im not offended..and im sorry for trying to insult you earlier ...I do agree with the first shot..and if I said the other five where where wrong I ment I understand them to be illegal..I agree with them as well...I am a law abiding citizen...and the reason thats so is because I have never been in a situation that I had to choose from doing somthing that is right but illegal..and I hope I never have to....as I said before I truly believe in the idea of the law and what it stands for..but it has done been corrupted and perverted to the extent that it is not always right..and it will be a very cold day in hell before I do time for somthing I didn't do..I promise you I have rarely been that scared when I thought and almost did go to prison for something I didn't do..why wouldn't they believe me detectives that I used to believe in so dearly telling me that the evidence was saying I shot my brother...I couldn't understand it..I thought the law would save me from this..no way a innocent person could go to prison like that....I will never trust it again..ever.....I come from a place where things are black and white ( not being racist ) right and wrong....I did not see anything wrong with what the pharmacist did...at worst a mercy killing...just like when you run over a snake with your pick up truck and you get out and shoot it....I don't agree with paying the robbers medical bills the rest of his life when there are good people that havnt did nothing wrong that need it more than he does....
 
The Saturday after the verdict went down, I was taking an Oklahoma Self-Defense Act course (CC prereq) at H&H Gun Range in OKC. Part of the course is an attorney (relatively experienced in these type of cases and a CC holder to boot) going over the Act with a fine-toothed comb. During one of the breaks, someone asked him about the shooting, and he felt the guy could have walked if he had kept his mouth shut. He could have testified (you can't be cross-examined on lies you don't tell) and they could have brought in expert testimony to point out that people in high-stress situations don't always do rational things. But then he had to blab to every media outlet in the lower 48 and shot that line of thinking all to hell.

During the lunch break, several attractively dressed young ladies were walking around the store with a petition to ask for a pardon. Didn't seem to have any reaction when I told them I agreed with the jury verdict.
 
Posted by geetarman: The pharmacist, IMO, was wrong to shoot the perp on the ground after he was down and posed no immediate threat, but I cannot see first degree murder.
Twelve Oklahoma jurors who heard the testimony and who saw and considered the evidence, and who were instructed about what constitutes first degree murder in the state of Oklahoma, did not take very long to decide unanimously that the crime was first degree murder.

My first reaction in learning that Ersland was to be charged with first degree murder was one of surprise, but after reviewing the law, the jury instructions, and the circumstances of the case, the reasons became crystal clear to me.

Ersland purposely fired multiple shots into the person on the floor. One can only conclude that he did so with the intent to take the man's life unlawfully.

And that's that.

I think he will spend some time in prison...
No doubt about it.

...and will walk after an appeal and retrial.
Can you come up with any conceivable reason for an appeals court to require a retrial?
 
chadstrickland, wasn't insulted by earlier posts but thanks. I do understand why people are sympathetic in the case. Hell, part of me is too. To a point though. I also agree with the principle of assisted suicides. But the fact is, it's against the law. No, the law isn't perfect but it's what we have. If we don't abide by it,and take it upon ourselves to mete out what we deem as justice, then our society has the potential to implode. The old west is gone, as much as we think that there was honor in that lifestyle. Posses, lynchings, gunfights, how many of these were done in the name of that honor? Were all the right people the subjects of these? If we allow things like these to perpetuate, then are we any better as a society than those we condemn for stonings, honor killings,and the like? Mahatma Ghandi I think said, "An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind." Might have been said before that, but that's who I was taught said it. I don't know if any have said it better.
 
It was done with forethought.

The fact is we can suppose, but we cannot know if there was forethought. The jury thought so, and they had access to the info we don't, so I tend to think you're right.

But I also think he could be still panic-stricken and not show it. See, I've seen people walk exactly as calmly as he did, and pick up the last pencil on their desks when a bombing was well underway. The mind is not a simple device.

I agree that maybe- just maybe- he would have walked free if it wasn't for his lying.
 
It did take forethought to unlock the drawer to retrieve the second gun. Reaction would have been having a pistol holding 17 rounds and firing 16. Not sure about him walking after the first viewing of video though.
 
Posted by micromontenegro: The fact is we can suppose, but we cannot know if there was forethought. No one can know, but one can decide whether there is reasonable doubt.
The qustion to be answered is whether or not deliberate intent existed in the mind of the defendant to take a human life.

Retrieving a second handgun and firing five shots into someone who is lying on the floor should pretty much answer the question of reasonable doubt.
 
That is true icedog...now i have to ask you a question..have you ever been in a situation like I was in...where you where completely without a doubt innocent..and yet everyone said you where guilty..and only by the grace of god did my brother survive and tell them the truth...you say its what we have and we must abide by it or our society will implode....I say when law becomes injustice rebellion is duty...thomas jefferson also said that
 
Retrieving a second handgun and firing five shots into someone who is lying on the floor should pretty much answer the question of reasonable doubt.

Again, I agree. But it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. This whole case is a disgrace.
 
chadstrickland, I too believe that if it becomes injustice rebellion is necessary. AFTER all other means to change the law have been exhausted. And yes I have. Was looking at eight years in jail for having a legal firearm in Mass. D.A said it was illegal even though the law stated I had 60 days to register it. One year for every round and one year for the gun. Was legal because I had just moved back to Mass from VA. Jury found me not guilty after 1 1/2 hrs of deliberation. This trial went on for 2 years and cost me $17,000.
 
Okay, for those of you who don't agree with the first degree murder conviction, why do feel that the conviction does not meet the criteria for Oklahoma law?

Note that this is a law query, not one about how your kid was getting beat up or how you have a fear of criminals, what your dealings have been in some other court, or any other non-relevant (to this discussion) and/or emotion-based justification.
 
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