OK, Whats the beef with Ayoob?

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Daddycat

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I hope I posted this on the appropriate forum. My wife and I became interested in shooting handguns in August/98. We got our ccw's in November/98. As I was very new and inexperienced with handguns I felt an urgency to learn as much about them as I could as quickly as I could. Therefore In addition to asking a LOT of questions at the gunshop and shooting range I turned to the gun mags. This is where I was introduced to the articles written by Maas Ayoob. I've found his articles to be informative and usually interesting. Of course when you don't know much to begin with, most anything can be labeled informative. However, I've seen several threads that have included some derisive comments about Ayoob on TFL. Have I missed something due to my relative inexperience about this guy? How much creditability does this man really have with my fellow shooters, and why or why not? Feedback as usual will be appreciated.
Daddycat


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[This message has been edited by Daddycat (edited February 18, 2000).]
 
I read few gun mags these days, but what I know about Ayoob is 98% positive. He's got knowledge, brains and Cojones.

IME, some folks just can't stand the idea of someone being better at something than they are,and the Net brings out the werewolf in others. Keep that in mind when you read derogatories about anyone or anything....
 
Beats me why he arouses such antagonism from some shooter netzeins...you see the same thing with Chuck Taylor. I enjoy his articles and his book 'In the Gravest Extreme' is a classic.

There's an LFI 1 near my part of Florida in December and if possible my wife and I will attend. Expensive, but I think training with Ayoob would be worth it.
 
I've read Ayoob's articles over the years and he comes off quite often as know-it-all and pompous, wherein it looks like he disrespects the intelligence of his readers. Still, I continue to read him as he has a different viewpoint than many gunzine writers. He appears to have a respectable IQ, where others may not ;) !! His tips like advising the reader to load less in a mag than the manufacturer specifies also hurts his credibility, IMHO.

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o I raised my hand to eye level, like pointing a finger, and fired. Wild Bill Hickok
o If you have to shoot a man, shoot him in the guts... Wild Bill Hickok
o 45 ACP: Give 'em a new navel! BigG
o It is not the function of our government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error. Justice Robert H. Jackson
o It is error alone that needs government support; truth can stand by itself. Tom Jefferson
o When you attempt to rationalize two inconsistent positions, you risk drowning as your own sewage backs up. BigG
 
Massad Ayoob is the best known of the gunzine writers and so makes a natural whipping boy for those irritated by gun writers in general. It also seems to bother some folks that he has a high ratio of claimed expertise to actual gunfighting/police experience.

I happen to enjoy most of Ayoob's writing and while I take his advice with a grain of salt it generally seems sound.

If any Ayoob-bashers would like to chime in on this subject, I invite you to quote three things Ayoob has written that are B.S. and explain why he's wrong.
 
I have strong reservations about Ayoob. A personal friend of mine who is big in the gun business worked closely with Ayoob in his early days and said it was not uncommon for him to have articles pre-written about a gun test. When he eventually got the gun, he just filled in the blanks with the gun name.

That was many years ago and he may be different now but it still makes me question him.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BigG:
... His tips like advising the reader to load less in a mag than the manufacturer specifies also hurts his credibility ...
[/quote]
Completely forgetting about guns and just thinking about how springs function over time under pressure, loading a magazine with a couple of less rounds is a good idea and will prevent the spring from failing -- especially when you might need it the most.

Try it with one of those bathtub/shower things that has shelves on it, attached to a pole with a spring inside that you prop up against the floor and the ceiling. When you first put it up, you'll have a difficult time compressing the spring in order to get it to fit. After 2 or 3 years, the poll and shelves can actually start coming undone. The same thing will happen with a magazine spring if it is kept under constant pressure.



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Share what you know, learn what you don't -- FUD.
 
My major beef is his "buzzword" of the day and constant attempts to bring TARGET shooting to self-defense shooting and his total lack of real world police experience. Being a reserve officer in a small sleepy New Hampshire town isn't exactly 1-Adam-12. He also fails to name names on cases and incidents for verification and fails to mention the cases he has lost or been creamed in.
Seems his daughter is now writing and becoming an "expert" with only a genetic link to the subject. That is how it works.
His background as his father's is being a jeweler and he got started with an article on jewelry store security in an NRA magazine and writing letters to the editors of gun magazines. You'd be amazed how many law enforcement magazines won't touch his stuff.
He also fails to come to the Internet to face critics as most gun rag writers have failed to do also. It isn't fun to face critics, but with the rapid growth of the Internet and declining sales of run related publications, such types have no choice. I just chose to enter into this arena early. Some will never make it and fade away as a result.
Cooper would be a classic on the web, but at age 80 or so I can't blame the guy. He doesn't need the crapola. Ayoob has shown in print his feeble attempts to face critics in his work. It isn't fast enough or long enough to work. Someone buy that man an AOL account. It's year 2000.
 
What has a quality magazine spring to do with a 50-cent bathroom fixture spring? I'd sure like to know. I've left my magazines loaded for years with nary a hiccup. The army has been using box magazines since WWI, you'd think they would have found something better by now if there was a problem.

You, with your own magazines, can do what you think is right.

Massad is preachy on too many subjects. He sounds like a nagging wife when he goes on and on about legal liability in various situations. I still read him, though. Also, does not identify sources, not good for credibility. Let's see... have I named three things yet?

Massad basically did a character assassination on the late Col. Charles Askins in a recent issue of American Handgunner. He used today's morality to judge actions which happened 50 or more years ago. Called him a psychopath, I believe. Talk about bias and Monday morning quarterbacking! Askins did more in the area of guns by mistake than Ayoob has done on purpose, IMHO. Read his writings, they are a treat!

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o I raised my hand to eye level, like pointing a finger, and fired. Wild Bill Hickok
o If you have to shoot a man, shoot him in the guts... Wild Bill Hickok
o 45 ACP: Give 'em a new navel! BigG
o It is not the function of our government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error. Justice Robert H. Jackson
o It is error alone that needs government support; truth can stand by itself. Tom Jefferson
o When you attempt to rationalize two inconsistent positions, you risk drowning as your own sewage backs up. BigG
 
Pluspinc: Please give us an example or two of cases you've lost or been creamed in.

BigG: You've listed three things, but you haven't provided any quotes.

I read Ayoob's article on Col. Askins and I didn't consider it "character assassination". Ayoob did mention that Askins didn't feel much empathy for the men he shot (or, apparently, for blacks and Mexicans in general) and I think that comes close enough to the clinical definition of "sociopathic" to be worthy of mention.
 
A metal spring is a metal spring whether it's sitting in a bathroom fixture or a gun magazine. Granted, the springs in gun magazines are of a higher quality but the same basic principles apply. This may not be a problem in non-hi cap mags and less negative & positive compression occurs but it becomes more important with the hi cap stuff, which, I believe, Mas was making reference to -- if memory serves me correctly, it was the Hi-Power Browning that he was talking about when he made this statement.

But this is a choice that everyone can make on their own. If I have a P14-45 loaded with 13 (12+1) rounds instead of 15 rounds, I doubt those two extra rounds will make a significant difference -- they might because sometimes only one extra round is needed to change the outcome of things but I would rather have 12 rounds than have the spring fail on me in the middle of a magazine because of being compressed too long.

[This message has been edited by FUD (edited February 18, 2000).]
 
I think he is very knowledgable on the legal aspects of what happens after a shooting. He speaks in generalities so the topics have appeal across the U.S. For example, the lethal force laws in Texas are very different from anywhere else in the U.S. and he must address his writing to a broad audience. I do not agree with everthing he writes, like the mag safety removal in the BHP and some of his Stressfire techniques, but most of his stuff is good. He offers expert testimony to his LFI course graduates and his courtroom experience would be valuable to have on your side whether you agree with him or not.
 
I don't read the gun rags much but I did read the article about Col. Askins. Now, while I respect Col. Askins for putting his life on the line, I do have to say I think some of the veneration of the man is misplaced. Did Ayoob misquote the man?
Did Askins not write in his own book that he wasn't much bothered by the death of one of his fellow officers, since he hadn't liked him much anyway?
Did Askins not write in his own book that he let a Mexican suspect run 50 feet out into a river before shooting the fleeing man in the back?

I don't buy the idea that today's morality is only for today and it'll all change tomorrow. If morality were as flexible as that, why not change OUR morals and go with the flow, deciding that self-defense is now wrong? After all, who can say what is moral for the times? I hear the same thing said about the founding fathers' positions on slavery, and it bothers me. Why not just admit that the founding fathers had flaws? They weren't prophets. And why not just admit that not everyone who is really good at killing people uses his knowledge only the right way? I'd love to be as skilled as Col. Askins was, and I respect his skill and courage, but not his apparent attitude that killing is fun and adventure.
 
My biggest problem with Ayoob is the way he seems to scrape the bottom of the barrel to provide support for his theories. I also am amused by the way his small New England police department carries FIVE GUNS in each squad car...the issue Ruger P90, mandatory backup gun, Benelli 12 gauge (okay so far but now) Ruger Mini14 223 carbine AND a 308 caliber M14. I mean for goodness sake...
 
Ayoob is very "conservative and cautious" in his advice concerning legalities of force, what a DA is liable to make of your carry rig, etc.

He'll very clearly tell you a factory-stock DAO will get you in less trouble than a modified 1911A1 as one example.

As long as you understand that this is the direction his biases lie, he's got a lot to offer. Let's not forget he's a lawyer knowledgable in self-defense law and is spreading information related to such instead of "hoarding" it. To me, that's more important than any percieved "arrogance" or "over-caution".

Jim
 
Ayoob's advice about downloading pistol magazines a few rounds (glocks in particular) is sound advice.

When Glock 10 round magazines are loaded to full capacity, they do not seat in the pistol when the slide is closed.

The top round in the magazine is contacting the bottom of the ejector. The cartridge does not have enough clearance, nor is there enough spring left in the magazine to offer any "compression".

Forcing the magazine to seat by slamming the bottom of it forcefully (like all armchair internet gun types recommend) can result in a broken or bent ejector.

Now, who's advice do you want to stake your life on? Some internet armchair blowhards? Or Ayoob?

Personally, I'll listen to what Ayoob has to say. And then I'll seek out why he said it. Who knows, you just might LEARN something.

I did...
 
Lessee, Mas said something like "Askins was a fun person to drink with, but I wouldn't want to get drunk with him." What does that have to do with anything? Was he implying that Charlie might go off, pull his gun and start blazing away? If that is not character assassination, I hope it is at least damning with faint praise!

When you judge any man, you have to put yourself in his place, not apply some kind of morality that happens to be in vogue in your day. Racism and all that was normal in Charlie's day, get over it. Many of your parents shared his view, most probably.

The last time Mas told to load down a mag was in a review of a 7 round Colt CCO Mag, hardly a Glock.

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o I raised my hand to eye level, like pointing a finger, and fired. Wild Bill Hickok
o If you have to shoot a man, shoot him in the guts... Wild Bill Hickok
o 45 ACP: Give 'em a new navel! BigG
o It is not the function of our government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error. Justice Robert H. Jackson
o It is error alone that needs government support; truth can stand by itself. Tom Jefferson
o When you attempt to rationalize two inconsistent positions, you risk drowning as your own sewage backs up. BigG
 
One problem with Ayoob is his magazine articles on the FBI "Miami Massacre'. Detailed analysis shows numerous errors and tends to discredit his conclusions. It makes you wonder how accurate his other second hand accounts are.
A number of LEOs I know did not like Ayoob's theories on gunfighting, post shooting trauma, tactics etc., because Ayoob had never been in a gunfight. Since Ayoob lists himself as a "Second Chance Save" in a recent article it seems that he was recently shot at. It will be interesting to see if this changes his views.
 
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