Ok time to show your German ladies with their leather taken off.

[pitfighter]

Thank you, Grant D,

I am not a reenactor, just a collector.

Ref. The Sauer 38H - I read that it was a choice between this and the PPK for James Bond's firearm.
I would like to find one for my collection, they turn up quite cheaply, however, I'm always just about to spend money, or recovering from spending, when I see them for sale - interesting and nicely made little handguns.

This is a fun thread.

Pit.

 

[gyvel]

I once collected German/Axis pistols and had a few Sauer 38H's. One was a Nazi Police pistol with a commercial finish that was about 99% -what a slick little gun! I always thought that cocking/decocking lever was a great design and don't know why it was never copied by anybody. Would have been great chambered in .380

Some Sauer 38h pistols were chambered in .380, but not very many.

For what it's worth, the Sig-Sauer P230 and 232 operate in a very similar manner to the 38h, and have the additional bonus of an external hammer.

 

[gyvel]

Another addition I recently got, a Walther model 4. Not often seen today. They are 32 acp. Some were issued for WWI although this one appears to be a WWI era commercial. Holster is unmarked but has been with the gun for a long time.

Winchester, your holster appears to be for a Unique Model 17.

 

[PzGren]

1942 Black Widow

I changed the grips on this one but have the original ones

Vis 35 with a low serial

A P.27 in the 110xxx range with polished blue finish. This gun has a trigger worth to write home about!

FN 10/22


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

 

[pitfighter]

Nice collection, PZgrn!

Is the PP a refinish?

I think a bolo Mauser is on your WTB list?


Pit.

 

[Winchester_73]

I once collected German/Axis pistols and had a few Sauer 38H's. One was a Nazi Police pistol with a commercial finish that was about 99% -what a slick little gun! I always thought that cocking/decocking lever was a great design

You know, overall, I like the Sauer 38H the best of it and its contemporaries. I love my Walther PP and my HSc is pretty neat, but for function and feel, its the winner IMO. The PP bites you, and the HSc curve is too abrupt to feel great in my hand. Perhaps if my hand was smaller, but they're not big as it is, it would feel better. I love Walther stuff, but the PP/PPKs were not perfect. Although as a collectible, they are hard to beat.

Some other Kraut gals, with and without leather.

Pitfighter, I have been meaning to inquire about your photos for a while now. Are those all WWII original guns aka bringbacks? Wow - either way. Whats the gun above the G43? I see a bolt ? The one on the left, a MP 18 ? And, in case anyone does not know, that gun on the left in the large group photo is a collector's dream. Thats a FG 42. Is it a clone Pitfighter?

In your pic with the 3 guns, is that a G41? Are any of your MP40 looking guns MP38s ?

Here is an article about those FG 42s - pretty neat guns:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FG42

Winchester, your holster appears to be for a Unique Model 17.

Thanks for the info Gyvel.

Ok back again with some I got recently. I've been on a streak with these type of guns. I better go back to revolvers or I may forget about them completely! I like WWII guns a lot. First, I got these 3 pistols from a local dealer. Both FN 1922s are full rigs, WaA140, with marked magazines. Both guns have unmarked holster. The holster that looks femaru-ish is correct for a FN 1922, a Krieghoff pattern, although not marked. The pebble grain holster is nice as well. The other lady is a Hungarian lady - 380 Femaru without leather. Original mag, pretty nice overall. The wood grip FN has a SN of 80XXX and the black bakelite grip FN SN 38XXX.

Then I got this really nice BYF 42 "black widow" luger. This gun came with an original black FXO bottom mag, a post war VOPO mag and some Triple K type replacement. It also came with a repro luger tool and a police holster. A nice find I thought.

Its a D block SN with the barrel gauge marking. In this block black grips / black bottom mag was common. Many black widows today are made up when someone wants to boost their byf luger. All of the research I did shows this one to be an original specimen. It is not imported and matches to the firing pin.

Here is a pic of the markings on the holster. The holster is in nice shape overall. The X's represent the holster being re-issued.

I then got this nice BYF 44 P38 with 2 P38v / U magazines. The neat thing about this P38 is despite being a BYF 44, it was made in 1945. This is because Mauser had these parts already made or perhaps they didn't care to change the code. Mauser suffixes went straight through the alphabet, meaning if D was reached in 1944, then they went with E with the same marking for Jan of 1945, for example. Since its an E block, it was made either Feb or March 1945. After those 1945 BYF 44 guns, the code changed from BYF to SVW. It came with, ironically enough a nice P08 1941 EPF holster which goes great with my black widow. The seller thought it was a P38 holster. He actually attempted to correct me when I asked if the holster had a luger tool. Go figure. I believe the gun to be a dual tone as well, since it has the phosphate frame with a blued barrel. The slide appears to be blued although its worn some. All matching, non import.

 

[Winchester_73]

I got this shot of the BYF 44 which shows the differences in finishes between phosphate and blue. Look underneath the barrel compared to the frame.

Some say the all blued Mausers were the nicest fit and finish P38s of the war. I'd like to compare one someday to an early walther such as a AC 40 or a 480 code, but I don't have either yet. This BYF 44 was my first Mauser made P38. I end up getting more CYQ code P38s than anything.

The P08 army issued holster that came with the P38

Then I was lucky enough to find another good luger. This one is a Mauser made (S/42) G date aka 1935 police issued luger. G dates came after K dates (1934) so the Nazi's could look like they were not violating the treaty of Versailles which restricted the Germans from 9mm military pistol production. Starting in 1936, they didn't care anymore and put "1936" right on the chamber of their lugers.

Per Jan Still's data, its in the right block, the E block (they used E and F block G dates) for the police accepted G dates. Still says only approx 900 G date lugers were accepted for use by the police. These had the sear safety added as mine does. Mine has a matching Haenel Schmeisser magazine. The gun all matches to the firing pin except the grips, which are unmarked. I was very happy to find this luger. Not many around.

This luger, S/42 G date compared to the other one, a BYF 42, (also Mauser made) has strawed small parts (the gold color finish). This was discontinued in 1937 in favor of blued small parts

Here is a pic of the sear safety. Basically every police luger had this added since it was required by the police for their lugers. Often you will find this added to Imperial era lugers. Its the thin metal strip on the top assembly which has the rivet on the right side. Compare this photo to the BYF 42 to see it does not have it as it was army issued.

 

[Winchester_73]

The funny thing here is that after I got the BYF 42, but before the P38 and the G date, I was at a dealers shop I know. I bought some small stuff from him, and he threw in a P38 hardshell holster. The holster has some problems, but he basically gave it to me. So if you were following along, I got an army luger holster with the P38, a police luger holster with the black widow, and a hardshell P38 holster followed by the police G date luger. So basically, I was able to do a switch around to mate each gun with a correct holster. I was lucky it worked out that way. What are the odds. Also notice that both of these mauser luger SNs end in "73" - what are the odds of that?

Last saturday I made it to a local show and scored this very clean AC 45 P38. Sorry, no leather, but I will get a holster eventually. It has a correct P38v / U late war mag as well. All matching, non import. AC 45s are uncommon because the Germans surrendered in 1945. Only approx 32k were made, compared to well over a 100k each for AC42, AC43 and AC44. This one, without a letter suffix, made made in Jan 1945. I hope I look this good when I'm this old....

Well thats all the ones I got since I last posted. Questions / comments are welcome.

 

[PzGren]

Pit,

the PP is a refinish, it made the markings shallow but still visible. It is a very late model without cartridge indicator and should have a rough military finish.

Shoots okay and I got it for a really good price.

Here's the other side:

and here it is next to my ZM rimfire PP. The differences in slide design and weight become obvious.

 

[PzGren]

Winchester 73,

you got a very nice collection of German pistols! To know about the "Schiwi Sicherung", you probably have also some money in literature.

 

[pitfighter]

The PPK is nice - the rough finish ones are also interesting when you come across them. I am looking for a PPK for my little grouping, I may have found a K serial numbered one, that I like.

I think I may have to find a 38H for my collection, too.

Win73 - Great pistols BTW - Ref. My pic, I am afraid you will be disappointed to learn - that it's a rough mix up, as is my German collection (pics if wanted) - I have not been collecting very long, and go after the pieces that get my imagination going, rather than museum grade things:

MG42 - WW2 kit on inert receiver.
MG34 - WW2 kit on inert receiver (DOT 45.)
MG13 - WW2 kit on inert receiver (1936.)
MP35 - Original kit on inert receiver (La Coruna.)
MP34 - Original kit on inert receiver (9mm Steyr).
MP44 - WW2 kit on inert receiver (CYQ kit on Shoei receiver.)
MP40 - WW2 kit on inert receiver (BNZ 42.)
MP40 - 2X Japanese replicas (MGC 68.)
FG42 - Japanese Replica (Shoei.)
G43 - AC44 WW2 original (Walther Variant.)
G41(m) - WW2 original (Mauser variant.)
K98k - WW2 original (1943.)
Walther P38 - AC42 WW2 original
Luger P08 - Original DWM with capture papers.
Reichsrevolver - Original Suhl (1883.)

MG34 & MG13.
*They are without their leather slings - if that counts for this thread?

Reichsrevolver 1883 10.6mm and an English revolver from 1906.

We're not allowed assault weapons without major modifications here in Ca, let alone machineguns, so I choose to own the MG's this way. All but three could be returned to their original status with the right permissions and parts.
(The MG13, MP35 and MG34 have had some ruthless demilling done, but could be brought back with work.)

The semis and bolts are untouched originals - I have shot everything except the G41(m) - replacement parts are too difficult to find, and I have seen one firing on the internet, that's good enough for me.

Pit.

 

[MJ1]

VOLPO

 

[Winchester_73]

you got a very nice collection of German pistols! To know about the "Schiwi Sicherung", you probably have also some money in literature.

Yes you are right. I have only been collecting approx 5 years so I lean a lot on books. Even books that have some errors are usually more correct than other people, or the internet, depending on your good your "filter" for the info is. I'm also a little younger than most other collectors - at least the collectors that like what I like.

Here is my main library in my gun room. I have a credit card that gives me points to use on amazon, and I use those to get out of print gun books. Of course, some I purchased, a few were gifts, etc.

Here is my smaller living room gun library offshoot. I basically rotate these some, but these are also ones I more frequently reference.

Win73 - Great pistols BTW - Ref. My pic, I am afraid you will be disappointed to learn - that it's a rough mix up, as is my German collection (pics if wanted) - I have not been collecting very long, and go after the pieces that get my imagination going, rather than museum grade things

Thanks. No, I'm not disappointed at all. It was crazy at first the possibility of all of them being the real McCoy. They are still neat to have despite being replicas. If that's what you can have, then have at it. It shows me how much you appreciate them, to have basically replicas of them, in place of the real deal. Many people would not bother, but you have a passion for them, and I of course can appreciate that. Perhaps someday you will own real ones. I'm sure you would love to, as would I.

So its been a while, and like MacArthur, I have returned - with a new gun!

Recently while browsing my favorite gun show, the internet gun show (24/7 and more guns that you can shake a stick at!) I located this JP Sauer 1913. It came as a full rig. Some of these were carried during WWI by the Imperial Germany Army. Usually this would have been an officer's gun. I actually have one already, which is also Imperial accepted, but this new one is in wonderful shape, with 2 correct mags and a great holster. I stripped it down and it all matches (bolt handle, bolt, firing pin, barrel shroud, frame). The holster is a nice maker marked 1917 holster. How many of these holsters could have survived? I assume this rig to be a WWI vet bring back, which is hard to prove and not often observed when you think about it. I got it from a pawnshop who did not know it was Imperial marked. In the book Central Powers Pistols by Still, it states that the Sauer 1913 was available via private purchase for German officers for a price of 37 marks. Approx 30k were Imperial accepted for WWI German army usage. Both my older example, SN 49XXX and my newer example SN 75XXX are considered Variation 1. Imperial 1913s are rarely seen in this condition.

Look at that blue. Mauser, Walther and JP Sauer sure knew how to make guns. The Imperial marking, which is a C/Q interwtwined stamp is just below the Crown/N mark, directly behind the top of the trigger guard.

Very nice maker mark here. How many of these could have reasonably survived? Getting close to the century mark now.

B.A.XI = Bavarian Army - 11th division? Not sure about that yet.

 

[Cheapshooter]

Well, my German Lady is a modern gal. She wears camo!

 

[PzGren]

Winchester_73,

your book collection is as fine as your firearms collection! Great job and you do have a plan. I am more of an accumulator than a real collector.

 

[gytrbyte]

this is my broomhandle mauser . WW1 make, ive got it narrowed down to 1914-15. i dont know if is a military or commercal model. im still trying to get more info on it.

 

[sc928porsche]

Its about time someone posted a broomhandle. Thanks.

 

[Scoro]

ERMA Luger 08 conversion kit in .22 LR.

(sorry, the photos are bad - mobile cam)

here is the house keeper wearing black leather tights...

 

[Winchester_73]

The King of my P38s

Pzgren

You are too kind. Thank you. I never had my book collection complimented before! Its come a long way though. I just ordered the Krieghoff parabellum book and a 1911 guide. You can never have enough knowledge.

I agree, it is about time someone posted a broomhandle, thx for that. I don't have one of those, and I also lack a PPK. Someday...

Also, scoro, that 22 conversion kit is neat. I never had one of those. They seem to be pretty scarce.

UPDATE - I finally got a P38 I've day-dreamed about getting for a while now. Its the best P38 I've ever owned actually. I wanted to share it with you all.

About 2 weeks at a local gunshow a guy walked past me with either a P38 hardshell holster or a luger holster, and either way, I'm interested! I stop him and talk to him, and he tells me he has a AC41 P38 rig for sale. "AC" was the code for Walther during WWII and "41" is the year 1941. The Germans used to make codes so that the Allies could not find out which factory made which weapons. The holster looked good as did the gun. He wanted more money than I had in my pocket, but the gun was really nice. Then he dropped the bomb on me "it has 2 matching magazines". So I looked the gun over, and it checked out. The frame bothered me some with the plum color it has, but I read that sometimes different nickel concentrations in the steel can cause this. Certainly the gun was never reblued. The mags are marked across the toe, with 2 E/359 marks on each spine. I realized the gun was likely completely right, E/359 on nearly all parts, not dipped, no import mark or X mark, etc. I then had to ask him to hold it, so I could leave the show to go to my bank, and then return back. He kept it for me as promised. I think I reeled in a good one here.

Finding any of these WWII guns with 2 serial numbered mags is a rare find, esp army guns. Police guns more often have 2 matching mags IMO based on the nature of their duties vs army. A rule of thumb with these guns and 2 matching mags doubles the value of the gun, on average.

 

[Winchester_73]

I see no one liked my double mag matched AC41 P38 - thats ok though.

Its about time someone posted a broomhandle. Thanks.

Speak of the devil! A few months ago, a guy I know through a friend decided to sell a Broomhandle he had acquired. He told me it was a 9mm, and the SN was 36XXX. I researched it, and found out that was the correct SN range for the red 9 contract. During WWI, Germany needed more pistols, specifically lugers, and the German brass felt that the Mauser factory was under-utilized. They then commisioned Mauser to make the broomhandle in 9mm. The seller had said he felt it was a pre WWI commercial 9mm - which basically did not exist. I figured that he probably missed the very small Imperial proof mark on the right side of the chamber. The seller claimed the gun matched inside and out, including the grips. There were some variance with the grips, since some "red 9" stamps on the grips were possibly done at the factory, some were done by armorers, some were done near the front lines, etc. This was of course done to prevent someone from confusing a 9mm version with a 7.63 mm aka 30 mauser version.

I liked the condition - all original. The gun came with a repro stock.

Here is the small proof mark that the seller must have missed.

All matching, with the correct "NS" hammer. NS meant "Neue Sicherung" aka New Safety - the safety was in the up position for safe and the hammer had to be cocked to engage. This was a departure from the previous design.

Look - it transforms into an assault weapon!