Ok fella's, lets see where everyone stands on gun control

Tony:
Painful post.

Punctuation, capitalization, spelling and grammar are your friends.
Spend some time getting to know them.
Please.
 
Great, so we can agree on all the detrimental effects of gun control, but don't you think that we should be doing something other than electronically patting each other on the backs with +1's and offering up the same tired "cold dead hands" routines and chanting of the Second Amendment?

You want to make progress, you chose diplomacy and you give and take. You give reasonable gun control, and you take reasonable access to firearms. Offer up a NICS check, take an assault weapon. Offer up a waiting period, take a saturday night special. Offer up a training standard and registration for carry, take nationwide carry.

You will not get everything you want, no matter how long you hold your breath and stomp your feet. But, you can get most of it if you agree to meeting people halfway. Give up the ability to possess the bazooka, but maybe take the ability to own an M16 for less than $16K.
 
No gun control. Period. Harsh violent criminal control is fine.

Bud Helms said:
Because the right to operate a motor vehicle is not enumerated in the BOR.

The Right to Keep and Bear Arms is.
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We have motor vehicle licensing and registration so that people can routinely drive vehicles in public, in close proximity to each other, given that vehicles are very dangerous if driven incorrectly.

The rationale does not apply to guns, not because arms are listed in the Bill of Rights while motor vehicles aren't, but because guns are to be used in public only when there is already a serious crime taking place. The issue is one of competing harms. If a situation is dire enough to merit use of a gun, requiring licensure would interfere with responsible efforts to rectify the situation. It's the same as with driving an ambulance or using a HAM radio in an emergency. No license is required.
 
ffer up a NICS check, take an assault weapon. Offer up a waiting period, take a saturday night special.
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Just like they did in California, USA. An SKS was legal there...just register it.

OOPS...Changed our mind...it is now a banned assault weapon (we changed the definition too)...TURN IT IN!


BTW...what is a satuday night special? Which, my easily concealable SIG p-230 or my equallay concealable Jennings .380?
 
As rangermonroe points out, that compromise thing just leads us down a slippery slope. We've seen it time and again.

Real progress comes from attaining a spine. And electing those who have spines.

Willingness to compromise is a sign of weakness, and will be perceived by the oppostion as such. It gives aid and comfort to the opposition, lending them a sense of their own legitimacy.
 
How about we rollback all firearms legislation at the federal, state and local level so that law abiding citizens truly have the right to own any firearm they wish?
 
Bud Helms said:
Because the right to operate a motor vehicle is not enumerated in the BOR.

The Right to Keep and Bear Arms is.
Click to expand...

Do you feel as strongly about the other ammendments as you do the second? Do you support gay marriage? Because it is easy to argue that if any church is willing to marry two adult, consenting adults of the same gender, then any law forbidding could arguably be prohibiting the free excercise of their religion (and that allowing them a church service without legal recognition violates the "establishment" portion, by recognizing marriages performed by some religions but not by others). What about the current warrantless surveillance occuring in the US? Because it isn't hard to argue that that violates the fourth. One could also say that "interstate commerce" has been used as a smokescreen to push drug laws that violate the ninth/tenth ammendments.

It's likely that you, or many others supporting the second ammendment here, disagree with some or all of the above. I can understand why, though I don't agree. My point is that while you may be alright with a more "limited" interpretation of other ammendments of the Constitution in those instances, you can't then expect nobody to come by and limit the second.

Me personally? Not a fan of gun control at all. I believe in background checks, but only because I believe in keeping guns out of the hands of convicted criminals (depending on their crimes)...and background checks make that marginally easier to enforce without placing undue burden on law-abiding citizens. I hate assault weapons bans (though I can "accept" bans on items such as rocket/grenade launchers...but not like them). I think waiting periods are asinine. I had never heard of the idea of limiting the number of guns a citizen can buy in a period of time, but good lord is that stupid. I think requiring permits to conceal isn't the worst idea in the world, but every state should be "shall issue," and recognize CCW's from all other states. I'm glad that I live in a state that has some of the least restrictive gun laws in the nation (Montana).

Let me tell you, though, it is hard voting when you're me. You can probably count the number of Congressional candidates that support gay marriage (and civil rights in general) and gun control across the entire US on one freakin' hand. It just seems to me that very few people are fans of the whole Constitution...

Though I would argue that the second ammendment is, in theory, the most important part of the bill of rights. Because it is much easier to win back any other rights the government takes away given a well-armed populace.
 
Welcome to the libertarian party

Do you support gay marriage? Because it is easy to argue that if any church is willing to marry two adult, consenting adults of the same gender, then any law forbidding could arguably be prohibiting the free excercise of their religion (and that allowing them a church service without legal recognition violates the "establishment" portion, by recognizing marriages performed by some religions but not by others).
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I don't give a rip. Just don't propose to me.

Or I'll butt-stroke you with my assault weapon! :D



Seriously, you are not far out of the norm here. :D

Some of us hate fags, blacks jews, puerto ricans and texans, georgians, and those no account SOx from 'Carolina. Not to mention the Yankees!

Most all of us like guns, gun stuff, chilli, trucks, wimmen, and such.

I think all of us hate the French, except... of course... the 3 french members ( and even they are undecided).

So, if you want to marry your sisters, brother in law...who is the reefer connection in your town, and need to ask me which is better...9mm or .45?...I'll answer.

Just don't ask for nuptial flowers.


Welcome to TFL
 
I have no problem with the instant background check, and I have no desire to own a full-auto pistol or rifle.

Now, when the term "saturday-night special" comes up, that raises all of the hairs on the back of my neck. Who decides just what is a SNS? My little Smith M60 Chief's Special now goes for around $600+. I'd hardly call that a SNS, but it's small, and some people might.
 
skeeter1 said:
I have no problem with the instant background check, and I have no desire to own a full-auto pistol or rifle.
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I have no desire to marry another man. Yet I support the right to do so. We've lost more rights (including gun rights) to an apathetic majority than anything else, in my opinion.

Also, my previous post was more a response to the observation that most gun enthusiasts I've met have also been social conservatives, and voted accordingly. I'm not saying any of you agree with all the restrictions to civil rights I mentioned, or that all you of disagree with any of them. But I'm willing to bet that most of you disagree with some of them...and as such should not be surprised when somebody comes after the second ammendment.

Also, thanks for the welcome, rangermonroe!
 
Hey, anything I can do.

Just tell me you like the smell of gunpowder...freshly burned. Or freshly opened, for that matter...and we have common ground.

I might hate you later, you probably will hate me sooner. But for now we'll be friends. :D

I proposed to the wife about 15 y ago like that. She still keeps me around.
 
I happen to be staunchly behind the US constitution, and not just the second ammendment. Voting-wise, I tend to be a liberal democrat.

Having said that, don't come and try to take away my firearms.
 
OK fellas lets see where everyone stands

I think there should be no restrictions. No waiting periods. Second Amendment should apply to evry type of firearm, without Tax, Permits, etc.
 
Redneck opened the thread with this question: Ok fella's, lets see where everyone stands on gun control

"And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms....." Samuel Adams, United States Congress, 1789 Bill of Rights Ratification.

Smart man, that Sam Adams! But what arms, did you ask?

"Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birth-right of an American ... the unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people." Tench Coxe, Pennsylvania Gazette, February 20, 1788

Another smart man.

I think I stand with the founders, as they knew better than anyone the meaning of the words they wrote: "...every other terrible implement of the soldier..." is what they meant. All hand served weapons platforms are to be available to the citizen as well as the soldier.

No taxation of the right. No registration. No licensing.

I also live in the real world. Since we didn't lose this right in one fell swoop, but piecemail, that is how we get the right back (Short of another very bloody revolution/civil war, that is). That is the end towards which I work. Within the framework of laws and legislation, while those remain viable options.

Welcome to TFL, Juan. I think you may find more people here than just yourself that value the entire Constitution, and all of the Bill of Rights. It's called being a classical liberal. Not what the word has morphed into today.
 
gfen said:
You give reasonable gun control, and you take reasonable access to firearms. Offer up a NICS check, take an assault weapon. Offer up a waiting period, take a saturday night special. Offer up a training standard and registration for carry, take nationwide carry.

You will not get everything you want, no matter how long you hold your breath and stomp your feet.
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Perchance you need a reminder that the community interested in passing more gun-control legislation is not interested in this dreamy give-and-take utopia you’ve created. We're not playing a game of Go Fish here, gfen.

San Fran gun ban, D.C. gun ban, NYC gun ban………

…….flash hiders, barrel shrouds, bayonet lugs, suppressors, "high capacity magazines," pistol grips......etc.

All across the nation these items are banned in one form or another. But that's reasonable, right? We received something “reasonable” in return for these concessions, right? Wrong.

Know why? Because the antigun groups have just moved on to the next item on their itinerary. And it will continue forever. Show me where it’s evenhanded and reasonable.

There is no middle ground that'll be reached one day whereby you'll hear the antigun groups give a collected sigh followed by a comment like, "Hey I think we're done now. Everything is nice and safe. What are we going to do with all these left over t-shirts?"
 
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Natural Rights are not open for negotiation. WE are entitled to defend our lives and our liberty with whatever arms we find necessary. Now whoever can afford a Barrett .50 cal rifle, more power to you, I doubt you'd use it in a crime when you could buy a cheaper deer rifle for whatever you plane to shoot at.

SNS is just a term I picked out because often people who buy them are not able to afford something better so it is sufficient for their needs.

A lot of the devices they banned back in the 90's were comfort and safety items on the gun (except for a few like bayonet lugs and folding stocks). Muzzle brakes help manage the weapon as heat shields obviously help keep the operator from burning themselves on a hot barrel. Imagine if we applied the same bans to other devices like cars and microwaves and stoves. I bet a lot of people would have an outcry then, but since the public is generally ignorant about guns to the point of thinking they somehow make a person evil.
 
I don't mind the NICs check, and I don't mind laws that punish people who use firearms illegally, but most other gun control laws I could do without. I also believe that if there is going to be any restrictions on the right to bear arms, then the police and military should be held to the same restrictions as everybody else.

As for gun laws I'd love to see: mandatory Eddie Eagle programs and intermural shooting sports (skeet shooting, CAS, IDPA, etc...) in public schools. What could be better gun control than that??
 
1) I dont mind the instant background check system. -- I guess it's not horrible, as long as no records are kept. How do we get that guarantee?

2) I fully support the concealed carry permit system and "right to carry laws". -- Well, yes, as long as the issuance is non-discretionary. The problem is, any licensing system has the potential to be made impossibly stringent.
3) I realize the way it should be is in Vermont, no permit to carry, however I realize that this will never happen on a national basis. -- I don't like that defeatist attitude. The same could have been said prior to getting 40 states to have shall-issue CCW. With that attitude, it would not have been accomplished.
4) I believe that responsible citizens should be allowed to own fully automatic rifles, if they are willing to pay the $10,000-$20,000, and go through all the red tape with the BATF. -- WTF?! If you're a non-criminal, why should you have to be RICH to have full auto??

What I do NOT support
1) Any type of mandatory waiting period -- I agree.
2) Ballistic fingerprinting -- I agree.
3) One gun a month rules -- I agree.
4) magazine capacity limits -- I agree.
5) Any type of registration, licensing system -- I agree.
6) Any limits on gun shows -- I agree.


-azurefly
 
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