Officer Kills Party-goer Armed with Toy Gun

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Where I posted...
I've still mixed feelings regarding these realistic toy squirt guns or even cap guns. Maybe I'm letting the anti's get to me, but as several have noted here, I'll be handling these toys just like the real thing - unless all parties know ahead of time that the toys and the game are harmless darts, caps or water.

But even the latter case can become tragic if someone ignorantly steps into it without knowing that it IS a game and the "guns" are toys.

So yes, ban them all!
 
Everyone likes playing the armchair quarterback when they criticize law enforcement. "He could have done this... he should have done that..."

Simply put, what would you do when staring down the barrel of a gun... possibly a replica maybe? It's different when you know for a fact that it's a fake. But when you don't know, would you wait long enough for the muzzle flash?
 
What Leedesert said....all of it.

Look, people. The cops uniform is little more than a target in certain circles. Having someone point an (apparent) weapon at you while yours is still holstered places you *way* behind the power curve. Just as the cop "had time" to check the context, so did the actor. While it's unfortunate that the cop didn't choose this potentially life threatening encounter to play therapist, it's equally unfortunate that the victim didn't drop the weapon when he realized what was going down.

It's a regrettable circumstance for both sides. But hardly the cop's fault. It'll be interesting to see Rosie's position....one of her own killed; toy gun; cops who "should have guns". Is she going to blame the actor or the cop? Chances are she'll blame the "guns".
Rich
 
The key phrase here is pointed it at the cop. The deceased did not give the officer any choice now, did he...
 
Don't point a gun, even a toy gun at *anyone*.

You might damned well get shot, and deservedly so.

Oh, and btw, in a situation like that you have no time to think, to consider- you just act. Thinking gets you killed.

We did a lovely drill in academy. I'll give you the gist of it...it is a training scenario performed with 'red handle' guns...that is, 'real' guns with no firing pins and plugged chambers. One guy is the BG, one is the cop. Each have identical guns. The scene is a bank robbery in progress...BG is exiting the bank, gun down to his side.

Cop usually draws down on the BG and issues a verbal command. BG just stands there. Now, the cop is WAAAAAAAY ahead of the curve here, right? He has the BG covered, he is aware of the threat. No way he can lose this one, right?

Wrong. The BG can invariably snap his gun level and get a good *clickclickclick* out before the cop can get one compression of the trigger.

Action beats reaction, every damned time. Now, yes...there are things you can do to increase the odds. Cover, concealment and distance, to name but three. But the general theory holds. Someone pulls a gun on you, THERE IS NO TIME.

If you wait, you at their mercy. Sure, they might decide not to shoot you. Wanna bet on it?

Mike

PS I feel badly for the actor, and the cop. But the actor was ignorant and foolish, and occasionally mother nature decides to enforce her immutable laws. I'm just sorry it had to be a cop to do her dirty work :(


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"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -Robert Heinlein
 
Also, the Golden Rule of the Media: the newsies get the facts wrong routinely. We have no idea what really happened there, and we won't for quite some time. I mean, I have seen stuff regurgitated on the 11 o'clock news, and I was THERE, and I didn't recognize the events they were describing. It can be that bad. And when the propriety of a person's actions hinges on small details...well, lets not rush to condemn or exonerate.

Mike



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"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -Robert Heinlein
 
Unbelievable that a cop at a costume party at a million dollar mansion w/ Hollyrood glitterati, limos, security, etc. would fire thru a window at a party-goer,
albeit a dumb acktor. Folks in cop costumes? And what happened to entering the place w/o a warrant??? It's usually dark at night, right? Could the perp even SEE the cop? I may be too anti-establishment to see the law and order side, but at the VERY least this cop-critter should never be allowed to carry a badge or a gun again! I think the force is overworked, WAY underpaid, overstressed, and unsupported by the very public they are sworn to protect, but if this guy worked in MY town, I would be circulating petitions to have him removed! He showed a truly amazing lack of brain power in doing an innocent man. Maybe if prison were a REALLY bad place to go the pressures on the cops would decrease enough to relax the hair-trigger approach they need to survive...
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>And what happened to entering the place w/o a warrant???[/quote]

That would be answered in the original article by: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>When officers tried to locate the host of the costume party, they were "directed to the rear of the residence" by partygoers[/quote]

And, since the officer was: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> an exterior walkway[/quote] it doesn't sound like he entered the place at all.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Could the perp even SEE the cop? [/quote]

Again, from the article: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>an officer beamed his flashlight through the glass[/quote] Also, it was a party with about <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>two hundred or more people[/quote] attending. I would imagine the grounds were pretty well lit up.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>He showed a truly amazing lack of brain power in doing an innocent man.[/quote]

Do what? A man points a "replica semi-automatic pistol" at the officer. How, in the ten thousand names of God, is the officer supposed to pick the guilty from the innocent when someone is aiming a gun at him?
Lo, it must be truly wonderful to be able to pick the meek from the evil by just looking at the countenance. When you decide to teach us poor, foolish mortals how to look into a man's heart and see if evil lies therein, you will let us knnow, yes?

:mad:LawDog

[This message has been edited by LawDog (edited October 30, 2000).]
 
[moderator mode off]

USP45 wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The first is, why didn't the police officer demand that the guy drop the gun before he started to fire?[/quote]
and
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>It also surprises me that the officer's actually went into the home and were going "to the back". Most officers will stay at the door and wait for the owner or host to come to them. For two officers to be "surrounded" by so many people (most were prob. drunk or drinking) seems alittle strange. I'm not a police officer but it seems as if more and more people (LEO's) are becoming trigger happy while many People are just getting plain stupid.[/quote]

To the first, 2 answers: <UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI>The actor was behind a window or glass door. A simple command would have slowed him down with little likelyhood of being effective.
<LI>A gun pointed at you represents an imminent threat to your life. Is it your assertion that if it had been a REAL gun, and the cop had fired, he would have done so wrongly, because he didn't give the guy a chance to put it down? If so, HOW, exactly, does one tell the REAL guns from the movie-prop-worthy fakes?
</UL>
To the second, one of the goals of an officer is to take care of a call quickly. This is NOT guarenteed by standing at the door picking your nose while someone up front may [or may not] go around to find the host. Half the time, at a noisy party of that size, the guy who gets to the door first doesn't even KNOW the host. Wouldn't know what he looked like. Easier for the officers (esp. when there are TWO) to simply walk around to the back. Tamara makes a good point on that. It's what I'd likely do.

Emphasis added is mine. There are actually far fewer shootings per officer on the street than there used to be. Thankfully, the ratio of officers killed in the line of duty has also dropped like a stone since 1971. Since about 1993, most deaths of officers in the line of duty are by non-assault-related incidents. (i.e., car accidents)

But you're taught a couple of things in the Academy:<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI>Whatever happens, make sure YOU go home at the end of your shift, and
<LI>A man pointing a gun at you is bought and paid for. </UL>

JBTexas,
You don't need a warrant to enter a household where there's an ongoing crime, or when you've been invited in. They didn't, point in fact, actually ENTER the house at all before the shooting; they were "directed around to the back." They were answering a noise complaint. They had reason to speak to the owner of the house.

Coronach--
Beautifully put. You have a superb grasp of the issue. It SUCKS for everyone involved. I too really feel for that cop, who had to kill a man who was not a criminal, but who made a tragic, foolish mistake. The cop had a choice, sure. He could have cringed, danced behind cover, and screamed at the guy. He could have done nothing. Or he could have taken the action seemed the best bet that he would get home that night. If he simply agreed to not shoot anyone who pointed what absolutely appeared to be a gun at him until further investigation, he would be pretty worthless as an officer of the law.

:(,
L.P.

This has been just the perspective of this one small-town cop, and does not necesarily reflect the thoughts and beliefs of TFL or its Staff.

[/moderator mode off]
 
Hypothetical for Halloween eve.

It's late, way past bedtime for trick or treaters, say about 10:30pm. You've put the candy away and turned off the front porch light. There is a knock on the BACKdoor (some home's backdoors are the regular entrance for neighbors and friends). Hmmm... Maybe the older trickers are out now. Okay, you pick up your 1911 "just in case". You turn on the light and open the door with one hand with the 1911 in the other behind the door.

On your porch are a couple largish costumed urchins (even young teenagers are big for their age nowadays). While saying "trick or treat" they both pull 9mm pistols and let you have it - with water.

Ahhhh...

What did you do? (hypothetically)
 
Under my Father's supervision, I began handling guns when I was 6 yrs old....I had my own guns by 10 yrs old, I had farm chores, including varmint control.
Dad did not allow toy guns or BB guns or anything remotely resembling a real gun...the only exception being orange or green obviously plastic squirt guns. Golly, maybe he knew sumthin', huh?


Secondly, Hollywood politically abhors guns; we hear no end to how absolutely evil and corrupting they are; how there is no redeeming value whatsoever in a private citizen owning/having one.....yet, Hollywood makes billions of $$$$ exploiting guns in every fashion. An interesting and telling paradox, no?

A Hollywood actor, an adult goes to a party with a replica gun.....and points it at someone. How stupid is this??? We live in a society heated on the gun issue with almost daily reports of gun related "horrors", no one with half a brain doesn't have a position on this issue. Remember, he had the toy gun exactly because it looked like a real gun....he had it for "realism".

Gene pool scrubbing or tragic accident? Its too bad, but I have to tell you....no one I personally know would have done this.

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 
HEY! Don't point a gun, even a fake gun, at a cop, or anyone else, unless you want to get shot!!! Darwin was right.....
 
Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? The Shadow knows! Unfortunately for law enforcement, the Shadow doesn't teach his techniques at the Academy.
 
Folks,
They just showed the gun on the local news. It was a DESERT EAGLE Replica. They where holding it up along side the real thing. I could tell the difference in bright light due to the finish, but even though I'm a Desert Eagle nut, I couldn't have known it was a fake at 1:30 in the morning.

You know that I'm the first one to foam at the mouth when it comes to No-knocks and other Storm Trooper tactics, but I have to side with the LEO on this one.

What would you CCW holders have done, starring down the barrel of a .44 mag or .50 AE semi-auto? I would have done the exact same thing the officer did, empty my mag as fast as I could.

Yeah, yeah, I know, I know - I'd fry, and the cop will probably get off scott free, but that's not the point here. Ask yourself honestly - What would you have done?
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 4V50 Gary:
A lot of cities here in CA already have laws against toy guns. Of course, that didn't deter me from buying an AK-74 BB rifle. This rifle is made at the factory which produces the AK-74 and looks so real (they use real AK parts) that one can get shot carrying it.[/quote]

whoa cool, i want one, where did u get it? hopefully they have a website, if they do whats the url?
thanks.

now on the topic.
what kind of idiot points a toy gun at a cop? a drunk actor that what kind.
was he an anti-gun actor? unfortunatly probably not.
geez morons abound in this day and age.
 
Nah Gusgus, I don't think you would be fried. A good shooting in self defense is a good shooting in self defense. Any reasonable person who sees another, who, lacking the color of authority brandished in a rude and threatening manner a firearm would have a right to self defense. Now, being sued in a civil court is altogether a different matter...

I too would have shot. I wouldn't have been happy about the aftermath, but under the circumstances of making a split second decision, was there any viable alternative? Like I posted earlier, only the Shadow knows and he ain't teaching us.
 
I can assure you people who want to see the officer punished, that he will never get over this incident. He'll run and rerun it countless times; he'll dream about it, and will constantly say to himself, "If I'd just....?" Nothing will change. Of couse, he will be sued in a civil case, and given the way of Kalif. juries, he'll lose everything he has.

I know two officers in L.A., who were involved in similar incidents, killing an innocent person who was "pointing" a gun at them. No matter the shootings were found justifiable by both I.A. investigators and the D.A's. office, it ruined both their lives. They never got over it. I know a number of cops who've had to kill very dangerous bad guys, and very few ever have any problems with it. But... killing an innocent person, no matter how justified, is almost impossible for a cop to live with.

I don't know what happened at that party. I rarely believe anything much I see or read in the news media. They lie and/or distort everything, especially anything that has to do with firearms. But there is one thing of which I am 100% positive. The partyers were damned sure indulging not only in booze, but every kind of illegal drug you can imagine, and the officers responding would know this. (I've been to parties like this in Hollywood and I know whereof I speak.)

They would know that people under the influence of who-knows-what, will certainly often do very irrational things. Hollywood is well known to officers as the home of irrationality and bizarre actions of people. That might well have been of some influence on the officer's response when he saw a gun being pointed at him.

As for "identifying" himself as a cop, it is prime facie evidence that the cop is a cop, by the fact that he is wearing an LAPD uniform, a badge, a Sam Brown with the regular cop's equipment, and probably (but not always, a cop's hat). He does not have to start screaming, "I'm a cop, please don't shoot me." If it's a real bad guy, the cop will have a couple of bullets through his teeth before he gets the second phrase out of his mouth.

Someone wrote, "Action beats reaction, every time!" Damned straight! I've been "killed" several times in Laser Village, doing "building searches" holding a laser "pistol", and KNOWING there was a (role player) bad guy who was somewhere in the building who wanted to kill me. He'd step out and immediately, "BANG" and I'd be "dead." Believe me, it is very sobering to look down on the laser vest and see a couple of red lights bliking where the bad guy's "bullets" impacted my chest and stomach.

That's why cops react very quickly when someone points a gun at them. Lag time will get you killed, whether you're a cop, or a civilian in a self defense situation against a real bad guy.

This incident was a terrible, terrible tragedy, for the dead man, and the officer! And let's not forget, hindsight is ALWAYS 20/20 vision, isn't it?

There'll be nothing but losers out of this. FWIW. J.B.
 
This is a photo supplied by the LAPD. The top piece is labled as a .357 Magnum Desert Eagle. The bottom piece is the fake DE that was taken off of the body of actor Dwaine Lee after 11 shots were fired at him by a LAPD officer. The shooting was at night and the African American officer had little time to react to what he felt was a clear and imediate threat to his life. Upon examining the photo it is clear this is a understandable, justifiable, shooting caused by the carelesness of the victim.

Lakeitel

la107_full.jpg



Joe

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http://Second.Amendment.Homepage.com
 
I first heard the story on the John Boy & Billy show Monday morning on the way home from work. From the news report they had the guy(Lee) was dressed in a devil costume. Supposedly the gun was part of his costume. Since when is a gun part of a devil costume? When I was growing up the standard issue duty weapon for a devil was a pitchfork.
 
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