Lurper, I have never been in a gunfight. Those that have and statistics seem to suggest that with adrenaline flowing and bullets flying, getting center mass hits is hard enough, much less head shots. These folks also say movement can increase your odds of survival. I have to consider the odds and the information learned by those who have been in gunfights.
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Offense vs. Defense - Do you fire on the move or go for accuracy?
- Thread starter Guntec
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pickpocket
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Lurper -
Any chance we can keep the conversation going without thumping our chests?
Keep it friendly and informative - blowing our own horn is neither necessary nor productive.
If you truly are neither an average shooter nor lacking real-life experience then you are a statistical minority; a fact which you can't really expect people to know outright. Please regard yourself as such and refrain from talking down to others.
Any chance we can keep the conversation going without thumping our chests?
Keep it friendly and informative - blowing our own horn is neither necessary nor productive.
If you truly are neither an average shooter nor lacking real-life experience then you are a statistical minority; a fact which you can't really expect people to know outright. Please regard yourself as such and refrain from talking down to others.
Lurper, My conclusions are not based on you. They are based on other gunfight hardened individuals and statistics from shootouts. I have confirmed similar things from customers and friends who have been in gunfights.
Look, I didn't intend to insult your ability. I can shoot with the best of them myself. I'm am suggesting that most of the evidence indicates that the stress of a gunfight changes your ability to hit. You might be one that isn't affected and thats great. I see my groups open from trainings one holers, just because of competition pressure. I see friends that shoot great and are very smart guys, completely forget what to do during a competitions course of fire. Stress will effect your groups, with the exception of maybe Joe Montana "Joe Cool". These same stats suggest that movement reduces your chances of getting hit. Movement in a direction that make shooting back even harder for the BG would probably be even better (lateral etc).
I you are Bob Mundon just draw and fire from the hip reholster and light your cigarette.
Look, I didn't intend to insult your ability. I can shoot with the best of them myself. I'm am suggesting that most of the evidence indicates that the stress of a gunfight changes your ability to hit. You might be one that isn't affected and thats great. I see my groups open from trainings one holers, just because of competition pressure. I see friends that shoot great and are very smart guys, completely forget what to do during a competitions course of fire. Stress will effect your groups, with the exception of maybe Joe Montana "Joe Cool". These same stats suggest that movement reduces your chances of getting hit. Movement in a direction that make shooting back even harder for the BG would probably be even better (lateral etc).
I you are Bob Mundon just draw and fire from the hip reholster and light your cigarette.
Pickpocket,
I wasn't being unfriendly, uninformative or thumping my chest. I was merely pointing out the weakness in threegun's statement. The thesis of his statement was that someone who has BTDT has a differing opinion which implies that I have not.
I am sorry you found that offensive.
That is the shortcoming of this type of communication.
I wasn't being unfriendly, uninformative or thumping my chest. I was merely pointing out the weakness in threegun's statement. The thesis of his statement was that someone who has BTDT has a differing opinion which implies that I have not.
I am sorry you found that offensive.
That is the shortcoming of this type of communication.
No offense taken 3. From my experience and several of my acquaintances (and I believe most statistical data) most gunfights occur close in and last a short duration. My point was that taking time to move can be as much of a liability as an asset. Remember we were given the scenario that both parties had their guns pointing at each other. Given that, I believe the best option is to hit your target.
pickpocket
New member
Sorry if I misinterpreted your post - chest-thumping is a common occurrence and creeps into many threads.
As for moving vs not moving - threegun makes some very good points about your reaction having a lot to do with where you are in the reactionary curve. If BG has the draw on you, then you're probably more inclined to get the hell out of the way rather than try to draw. If both of you are drawn, then the situation changes slightly.
I can tell you that standing there pointing your weapon at someone who has their weapon pointed at you and NOT getting out of the way will set off every red light and siren in your head. Your brain is going to ask what the hell is wrong with you and why are you still standing here?!?! A person's natural reaction is going to be to get off of the line between you and BG.
It takes a LOT of practice (not to mention mental preparation) to train yourself to face down a drawn gun. It just is not the smartest place to be. Another point is that your body is going to want to do things all by itself once it realizes that you're being shot at - and standing still is not going to be one of them. Takes a lot of time to train yourself to overcome those natural reactions. Contrary to what some people think, your brain reacts poorly to the chance that it might take a bullet.
I think threegun made the point that if you are AHEAD of the curve, then BG should never get the drop on you. If you are BEHIND the curve and BG already has the drop on you then you're going to get the hell out of the way. And if you're IN the curve then it's going to be a split-second tactical decision - and your brain normally reverts to muscle memory or instinct during that time.
I think an important thing to remember is that this REALLY isn't about whether or not you "move", but whether or not you attempt to disrupt the BG's ability to maintain SA/SP. Average CCW'er isn't going to be running around with his/her weapon at the ready, so already you are that much further behind the curve right out of the gate.
Even those of us that have been trained and have operational experience will tell you that standing there looking at someone level a weapon at you is not a natural thing to do - and WE have our weapons AT THE READY. We are trained to shoot someone with a weapon as soon as we have a target, so we STAY ahead of the reactionary curve and maintain the advantage. Unless you have trained in this manner or train yourself to react this way, you are probably not going to maintain POA/POI hits under high-stress. I don't have a report to point to, but I do have operational experience - FWIW. However, I've seen many people (on both sides) react to being surprised by moving out of the way. Whether that's ducking behind a dumpster or just a lateral step it's all the same, and your reaction is going to have a LOT to do with your training, or lack thereof.
What I've seen the most of, and what has worked for me, is to simply drop to the ground. You present a much lower profile and it is a much more natural reaction. It's also fairly easy to complete your draw and acquire a target, especially if you practice it.
Pick a few movement drills and see if they work for you. Like I've said in previous posts, it's not going to be something you have time to think about, so practice it extensively and then find somewhere to practice it for real. See what works for you.
As for moving vs not moving - threegun makes some very good points about your reaction having a lot to do with where you are in the reactionary curve. If BG has the draw on you, then you're probably more inclined to get the hell out of the way rather than try to draw. If both of you are drawn, then the situation changes slightly.
I can tell you that standing there pointing your weapon at someone who has their weapon pointed at you and NOT getting out of the way will set off every red light and siren in your head. Your brain is going to ask what the hell is wrong with you and why are you still standing here?!?! A person's natural reaction is going to be to get off of the line between you and BG.
It takes a LOT of practice (not to mention mental preparation) to train yourself to face down a drawn gun. It just is not the smartest place to be. Another point is that your body is going to want to do things all by itself once it realizes that you're being shot at - and standing still is not going to be one of them. Takes a lot of time to train yourself to overcome those natural reactions. Contrary to what some people think, your brain reacts poorly to the chance that it might take a bullet.
I think threegun made the point that if you are AHEAD of the curve, then BG should never get the drop on you. If you are BEHIND the curve and BG already has the drop on you then you're going to get the hell out of the way. And if you're IN the curve then it's going to be a split-second tactical decision - and your brain normally reverts to muscle memory or instinct during that time.
I think an important thing to remember is that this REALLY isn't about whether or not you "move", but whether or not you attempt to disrupt the BG's ability to maintain SA/SP. Average CCW'er isn't going to be running around with his/her weapon at the ready, so already you are that much further behind the curve right out of the gate.
Even those of us that have been trained and have operational experience will tell you that standing there looking at someone level a weapon at you is not a natural thing to do - and WE have our weapons AT THE READY. We are trained to shoot someone with a weapon as soon as we have a target, so we STAY ahead of the reactionary curve and maintain the advantage. Unless you have trained in this manner or train yourself to react this way, you are probably not going to maintain POA/POI hits under high-stress. I don't have a report to point to, but I do have operational experience - FWIW. However, I've seen many people (on both sides) react to being surprised by moving out of the way. Whether that's ducking behind a dumpster or just a lateral step it's all the same, and your reaction is going to have a LOT to do with your training, or lack thereof.
What I've seen the most of, and what has worked for me, is to simply drop to the ground. You present a much lower profile and it is a much more natural reaction. It's also fairly easy to complete your draw and acquire a target, especially if you practice it.
Pick a few movement drills and see if they work for you. Like I've said in previous posts, it's not going to be something you have time to think about, so practice it extensively and then find somewhere to practice it for real. See what works for you.
Pick, you make some good points. However, the scenario we were given had both parties pointing weapons at each other. It seems clear to me that the fastest solution is to drop the hammer. I probably would try to disrupt the BG thought process by perhaps saying something to take his mind off of pulling the trigger. But again, in that instance I can see no advantage to any other course of action. In that position, I can eliminate the threat with two in the head in .25 seconds. At that point, I am not behind the curve - it is even. I could not seek cover as quickly as I can eliminate the threat. I guess the one crucial variable that we weren't given is the range. I am assuming it is within normal range (7 yards or less). My argument is that with certain people, seeking cover is not the best option. For me, the only thing that will save me behind or in front of the curve is my speed. That does not hold true for everyone. You hit on a key point with training and (more importantly) mental conditioning. Those are the keys. I am not conditioned to seek cover, it has been too many years since I was trained that way. I am however conditioned to hit my targets very quickly so that remains my best option in general.
This is all hypothetical speculation of course and really bears no resemblance to reality. It does however give us the opportunity to see other's points of view.
This is all hypothetical speculation of course and really bears no resemblance to reality. It does however give us the opportunity to see other's points of view.
Given that, I believe the best option is to hit your target.
Lurper, If quickly hitting your target will increase your odds of survival and moving will increase your odds of survival, why not quickly hit your target while moving..........even if the movement is slight? With little practice and I mean little, you can step in any direction while engaging the bad guy and still hitting. There is no delay as your legs can work while your hands shoot. Sweat'n'Bullets says that from closer distances it is possible to run while getting good hits from completely behind you. I have fired while moving but not while running. Anyway the best of both worlds can be achieved with just a little practice (provided you already shoot well).
Might be nitpicking 3. I was thinking specifically of seeking cover. I can shoot well and hit on the move, but given the scenario I don't think I would want to try anything other than dropping the hammer without some type of distraction. Here's why:
I know that I can drop the hammer faster than he can if he has not already committed to the action. That knowledge comes from experience. If he has then I still have a good chance of doing it faster because of my experience. Would taking a step slow me down? Certainly, the question is how much. At normal ranges it probably wouldn't be a whole lot, but I would worry that my movement would accellerate the BG's firing process more than the time it might buy me.
Again, with weapons pointed at each other at 10m or less. I'm taking the shot. If my weapon is already pointed at my target, that means my sights are aligned and I will hit the target.
Change the variables and the answer would probably be different. However, I think too many people tout the virtues of seeking cover over the virtues of removing the threat. There are times when the best solution is to put lead on the target.
Before anyone feels the necessity to point out that real life is different than the range, let me add:
The mechanics involved in hitting your target are the same. What is different is the amount that you let the external (outside of shooting) factors effect your mind. Everytime the shtf, I was completely calm. I didn't get nervous or shakey when it happened. Perhaps afterward, I don't remember. My point is though that you can train your mind to deal with those external factors. You can overcome your inherent fight/flight response and all of the other supposedly physiological responses that (if you listen to some) cripple you. Your mind is the key.
I apologize for drifting a bit from the thread's original topic.
I know that I can drop the hammer faster than he can if he has not already committed to the action. That knowledge comes from experience. If he has then I still have a good chance of doing it faster because of my experience. Would taking a step slow me down? Certainly, the question is how much. At normal ranges it probably wouldn't be a whole lot, but I would worry that my movement would accellerate the BG's firing process more than the time it might buy me.
Again, with weapons pointed at each other at 10m or less. I'm taking the shot. If my weapon is already pointed at my target, that means my sights are aligned and I will hit the target.
Change the variables and the answer would probably be different. However, I think too many people tout the virtues of seeking cover over the virtues of removing the threat. There are times when the best solution is to put lead on the target.
Before anyone feels the necessity to point out that real life is different than the range, let me add:
The mechanics involved in hitting your target are the same. What is different is the amount that you let the external (outside of shooting) factors effect your mind. Everytime the shtf, I was completely calm. I didn't get nervous or shakey when it happened. Perhaps afterward, I don't remember. My point is though that you can train your mind to deal with those external factors. You can overcome your inherent fight/flight response and all of the other supposedly physiological responses that (if you listen to some) cripple you. Your mind is the key.
I apologize for drifting a bit from the thread's original topic.
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