Off use of a tumbler

Cartridge brass consists of 70% copper and 30% zinc. Personally, I think you should listen to a chemical engineer and not use Brasso: "It's the copper in the alloy that ammonia dissolves: "Attack takes the form of reaction between ammonia and copper to form the cuprammonium ion, formula [Cu(NH3)4], a chemical complex which is water-soluble, and hence washed from the growing cracks". Just saying.

Don
 
After rereading the Wikipedia article I linked to, I am more convinced it is a bad idea to use Brasso or other ammoniated cleaners on it, despite the relatively brief exposure. If you do, what is protecting you is not case annealing but the fact you are not storing the brass in high humidity.

Below is a Wikipedia photo of a season cracked case by contributor DrHenley, taken 2003 and uploaded to the Wikipedia in 2010 and shared here under the Wiki Commons rules for sharing images. His description says:

DrHensley said:
The case had been polished with Brasso, which contains ammonia, and then stored in high humidity for several years.

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What you can learn from that image is that annealing, alone, does not prevent season cracking unless there is little or no stress from a seated bullet stretching the brass. It does nothing to prevent weakening of the brass by ammonia and moisture. It just reduces the total amount of stress from work hardening plus a bullet expanding the neck stress to just the latter, alone, so it takes longer for cracks to appear.

The military loaded its old 30-06 by painting a solution of asphaltum (pitch) and mineral spirits on the inside of case necks and letting the mineral spirits dry off. After the pitch dried, the bullet was seated. The asphaltum gripped the bullet, but there is no stress on the neck from an interference fit as is used in commercial ammunition and handloading today. I have pulled down both 1964 National Match ammunition and 1920's and 30's M1 Ball ammunition, and except for the crimp in the later, they are made the same way. If you use mineral spirits to remove the pitch from the bullet and from inside the neck of the case (and the crimp from the M1 Ball), you find the bullet is a slip-fit into the case neck and you can easily move it in or out by hand. The pitch, after drying, is like a high viscosity semi-liquid and the presence of the bullet flattens it out, so you don't have as much radial pressure against the inside of the neck, stressing it, as holding a bullet by an interference fit with the neck does. Annealing only prevents season cracking under the condition that there isn't significant stress on the neck from a bullet seated under it.

The other factor with military ammunition is that in the 1920's, Hatcher put polished cases (cleaned by dipping in 5% citric acid solution and then tumbling them) as the original arsenal practice had been and took them and some cases that had not been polished after manufacturing and set them on the roof of the Frankford Arsenal for a year. At the time, the atmosphere in that part of Philadelphia was quite corrosive due to chemical plants and sulfur from coal burning in the air. After that year passed, the polished brass was eaten away but the unpolished brass was still in good shape, illustrating that the oxides from production and annealing were actually good protection for the brass. This will have helped resist ammonia as well, by creating a kind of sacrificial oxide coating. So this is another arena in which the military ammunition's immunity to season cracking is unlike what you get in most commercial ammunition. Only cases like Lapua or IMI that have the annealing stain and oxides intact will have that added corrosion resistance.

So, what's going on with ammonia?

The name "season cracking" comes from the fact the problem would appear on cartridges during the monsoon season, when humidity was high enough to keep ammonia and copper compounds ionized. That allows surface ammonia damage to spread into the metal in the same way rust grows to pits. Just as rust will not occur on steel in low humidities, neither will ammonia damage continue to progress below the surface of a copper alloy in its absence. So it wasn't the ammonia exposure during the monsoon season that weakened the brass to make it split then. Rather, the high humidity allows ammonia damage at the surface to penetrate deep into the brass by ionizing it. It was the near 100% relative humidity during that season's constant rains and was reasly what caused the damage to progress to the point the necks split the necks.

Anyway, the lesson here is that short exposure to ammonia in Brasso will likely not harm your cases if you don't keep the polished brass in anything but lower humidities. However, if you do take it out into high humidity subsequently, the possibility of season cracking returns, as it may activate the ammonia damage at the surface and have it start penetrating deeper into the neck. It may not be weak enough to split spontaneously, but may, instead, split on firing.

Bottom line, ammonia and humidity work together to weaken brass. Splitting is caused by stress in brass that has been thus weakened. It may be hard to tell if a split neck observed after firing occurred entirely because of overworking the brass without annealing or if the weakening was partly caused by ammonia and humidity exposure.


Oxides

In the first photo below, you can see, especially on the left end, black cupric oxide behind verdisgris and blooming. This was caused when the brass got wet in a garage and stayed that way for a long time. Below it is the brass after cleaning in a heated ultrasonic bath in a 5% citric acid solution. There is pink from cuprous oxide left behind on some of them, but it is very thin and polishes off in the tumbler in about 15 minutes. I mounted a needle on a dial indicator and probed the pits from the oxide and about 0.002" was the deepest. The black oxide did not get below the surface. All that brass was subsequently loaded and fired repeatedly without incident.

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I’d like to report that I’ve done 20 30 cal Carbine rounds and 20 30-06 rounds and they came out pretty dang good. I think the brass may be clad with a topical layer of corrosion resistant alloy because where the heavier spots were it is a dull color and where it was superficial corrosion it is shiny as a new round. I’m not certain on that part but I know aluminum on aircraft have a layer of alclad (pure aluminum I think) on top of the aluminum alloy below that layer. I’m going to replace media with new and see if it will polish all of it up. I borrowed a tumbler and have been using what was in there until now. I’ve been taking pics but as of yet I’m unable to post in here.
 
How long does it take to polish up ordinary empty 30-06 shells? To get these to look like I’m getting them has been taking around 6 hours a batch.
 
Roamin_Wade,

A little advice: add a capful of Nu Finish car wax followed by a capful of mineral spirits to your walnut media. Cuts down on the tumbling time and the brass comes out nicer.

Don
 
Don't tumble live rounds in one of these...

If you're going to tumble live rounds, don't use one of these:

Midway Tumbler Fire

Tumbler Recall

"Midway Arms has received 13 reports of motors overheating and catching fire. "

These would not be the only instance of tumblers catching fire.

..
 
Sounds like good advice. Since tens of thousands were sold between '92 and '97, it seems reasonable to expect a few will have never been returned.


Roamin Wade,

Speed depends on the media and the type of tumbler (vibratory or rotary). IME, rotary tumblers and walnut media make for the slowest combination. A vibratory tumbler that is not overloaded and using Lyman's GREEN corncob and polish media is the fastest, and when it is new, an hour probably will take care of business. That gets longer as time goes by. Note, though, that you will get a more mirror polish using their slower RED media, which is the aforementioned walnut and rouge and is slower acting.
 
NEGATIVE. You never want to tumble loaded ammunition. If it is only a few rounds get some cotton brass cleaner, and clean the rust off.
 
Wade,

The Nu-Finish leaves a protective layer to help keep the brass shiny. But if you want more polishing action, mix it into a slurry with diatomaceous earth powder and let the media tumble with it long enough to mix it in. Diatomaceous earth is the same abrasive used in toothpaste and as a filler in some foods. You can buy 5 lb bags of it at the garden store as an insect killer, though it is not toxic (the stuff at the garden store is actually food grade; it kills bugs mechanically by scraping off the waxy coating on their exoskeletons so they dehydrate and mummify on the go—and then stop going, of course).


Lordvader,

Read the rest of the thread. This really is tantamount to an old wive's tale unless you put the ammo in a rotary tumbler so big it can fall far enough for a pointed bullet nose to set off a primer. No tester has been able to degrade powder yet by tumbling in a handloader's brass cleaning tumbler, not even after over a week and a half of constant running.
 
Not that I'm any kind of expert, and I certainly didn't spend much time researching the subject, but I remember when I first started reloading about 6 years ago, and someone asked a similar question here or on the other board I frequent, and decided that judicious tumbling couldn't hurt loaded ammo.

Since then, I've run at least 20,000 rounds, both pistol and rifle, through my vibratory tumbler, with no issues, except that I found that if I overloaded the tumbler with too much loaded ammo, the rounds didn't want to 'cycle' properly. I've been using primarily Lyman's walnut media w/ rouge for about 45 minutes per batch to get my cartridges nice and shiny.

I'm thinking Unclenick is correct, and the concern of tumbling live ammo is just a myth.
 
The only thing that makes it more than a simple myth is the industry people saying not to do it. But as explained previously, if they say it's OK, all they gain is liability should something unexpected go wrong. There's no upside for them, so, of course, they'll say no to it or most any other procedure that's not in the manuals as a standard reloading step.
 
While I'm in agreement that it's not going to hurt anything, it's not going to work well at all due to the weight of loaded shells causing them to bump along the bottom of a vibratory tumbler, and not move around through out the media like cases alone do. Very inefficient.

Don
 
I'm going against the grain, I do tumble loaded ammo, and I have been doing it for years and years with no ill effects. I won't leave them in for 10 hours, but about an hour or so with car polish is all it takes.

Tumblers do not vigorously shake things up and down, mine just has a rolling action.

But do not leave ammo in your car for an extended period, I had some 22/250 ammo loaded with Accurate 2460 that after 2 years of bouncing all over AZ's dirt roads started showing serious pressure signs. When I chronoed the load it was shooting 200 feet/sec faster than it should have.
 
My brass goes into the tumbler for de-lubing with a perfect, clean flat cut case mouth. They come out with the mouth peppered with tiny dings from case collisions. It isn't a problem, but I wouldn't want my delicate, soft copper meplats to experience the same thing.
 
it's not going to work well at all due to the weight of loaded shells causing them to bump along the bottom of a vibratory tumbler, and not move around through out the media like cases alone do. Very inefficient.

Don
[
Ah, this turns out not to be the case. I can positively attest to the fact that loaded .223 rem, .30-06, .44 mag/spl, 45 acp, 40 S&W, .357 mag, .38 spl, and 9mm roll from the bottom of the tumbler to the top and back down, just like unloaded brass, just a bit slower. At least so far after having done it to about 20,000 rds. They do not just sit on the bottom and vibrate, unless you overload your tumbler with cartridges.

Also, there's no issue with pitting, dings, nicks, etc. from tumbling loaded cartridges. At least up one hour. After that I can't say.

Of course, maybe I have the one magic Cabela's vibratory tumbler in the world. But it was on sale, so I doubt it.
 
Rich,

You must indeed have the magical vibratory tumbler.

Don
Oh well, that's good to know. Maybe I can get some money out of the thing then at the next gun show. I'll make up a sign, "Magic tumbler! Bidding starts at $500!!!"

I'm gonna be RICH I tell ya, RICH!
 
I have 0 issues with tumbling loaded rounds. A few years ago I loaded up rifle and pistol rounds with flake, ball and stick powder. All the cases well wet tumbled previously so were spotless inside and out. Then I tumbled them for a month straight. Each week I took one of the loaded with each powder and broke them down. At the end of the month the final rounds were tumbled for 730 hours straight, with no stopping at any time. All the cases were spotless, zero dust in any of them. No I'm not a scientist, or even stayed at a Holiday Inn but if a month shows no debris in the case from breaking down powder, a couple hours will be fine. Here's the link of my post.

http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=119371
 
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