Off Duty Obligations of LEOs

B

boing

New member
This is meant to be a technical discussion, not a subjective, possibly inflammatory "Us vs Them" discussion, and is aimed mostly at member LEOs. Please share your personal experiences as examples, if you wish.

What guidelines are set, and by whom, as to what an off duty LEO is obligated to do? Where is the line drawn between "Today I am a civilian" and "I am always a cop"?

In the "LEO Only" thread, someone brought up the example of a police officer (off duty) in line at a store when the place gets robbed, and being obligated to do something.

Morally, all of us would be obligated to something, if possible.

But legally, non-LEOs wouldn't have to do anything but sit there and get robbed, right? Would an off duty LEO be legally required to act? What about the Supreme Court ruling that LEOs can't be held responsible for protecting individuals, where does that fit in?

When you're off duty, no one expects you to write speeding tickets, or cite people for littering, do they? I mean, you have go grocery shopping sometime.

When do you 'look the other way'?

-boing

EDIT: I guess this probably should be in "Legal/Political." Sorry.


[This message has been edited by boing (edited July 15, 1999).]
 
There is no legal obligation to act, that I am aware of (at least not in MO)

It is, as you have put, more of a moral obligation.

Everybody is a little different, but for me, the potential loss of human life is the button that has to be pushed.

If I'm in a 7-11, and it gets robbed, I'm going to evaluate the situation. If it looks like everything is going fine and no one is more than likely going to get hurt, I'm probably going to become a very good witness. To pull, point and pray might make matters much worse. Now, if it looks like bad guy is going to start shooting...well, that's a different manner.

In an off-duty situation, for me CCW is a defensive, last ditch option. Off-duty, you're not wearing a vest (unless you are one THOSE goof balls), you have no radio contact, no back-up, etc. It can go way bad, real fast. Discretion is always the greater part of valor in these situations. John Wayne should stay at home for this trip.

There are some out there that will get involved in anything....I am not one of them.

One of the main reason leo's carry off-duty is NOT so they can act at the capacity of an leo all of the time, but for personal protection. Unfortunately, we put people in jail and/or prison. Most often they are in for a very short time. So there I am, with the wife shopping for groceries (yeah, right. Like that's going to happen) and here comes Mongo, who got just got out from his stint Up State, courtesy of Moi.....It can be an uncomfortable social situation.

So....to answer your question....there is no "cure all' answer. Each off-duty incident must be evaluated and stand on its own criteria. Before I act though, its got to be pretty bad....
 
From an ex-deputy. Full agreement. No hard and fast rules. Those who think they could take care of everything because they shoot great range scores are in another world, and I am not sure I want to be there with them.

Jim
 
My dept. requires officers to be armed at all times while within the Commonwealth of Ky. We are only required to take immediate action in the event of an emergency or if a felony is commited in our presence. I fully agree that no matter who you are, many times the best option is to try to be a good witness. Being a good witness is not the same as doing nothing. A police officer must act in the manner that will promote the most safety for everybody on scene. The last thing I want to do is to turn a bad situation terrible. If I were in a place that was being robbed, my main goal would be to not let the guy know I was a cop, keep everyone calm, and be a good witness. If it appears the situation is falling apart no matter what, then I would have to act to try to stop the bad guy from hurting innocent people.

A side question for the other LEO's. I personally carry a seperate badge case and wallet. My wallet has nothing police in it so that I could give it up without giving myself away. Does anybody else do that?

Anybody that has July 1998 issue of Guns and Weapons for Law Enforcement can see an article about my agency (SMPD.)
 
boing,

Do you work for a LE agency? I see that you have an obsession with LE actions, policy,
procedure, etc. I have noticed that you have
started or contributed to alot of threads on these topics. Are you Internal Affairs?
 
My policy was to not go looking for trouble while off duty. Sooner or later it will find you all by itself.

My field training officer had an opinion that most officers get into department trouble for actions they take off duty. There is always someone who will second guess your actions whether you did a good job or not.

I carried off duty almost 99.9% of the time. I had no intention of taking action unless someone was getting killed or something approaching the same. It was easier to mention to a store owner there was a shoplifter in action rather than take action myself.

------------------
Bruce Stanton
CDR, USN-Ret.
Sgt., Kings Co. Sheriff - Ret.
 
No ,I'm not an LEO, certainly not IA! Why, ursus, you got somethin' to hide? :)

Just about the only exposure I have to police officers, especially in a conversational context, is on this board. Being clueless about the LEO "lifestyle", I get curious and consider TFL to be an outstanding source of info. All varieties of cops, from different places, with different rules, and perspectives. Bit by bit, I understand more and more about what you folks do, and why.

"I have come here seeking knowledge
Things I did not learn in college" -Sting

Lewis probably comes closest to what I was looking for, when he says action is required when a felony is witnessed. That's a specific guideline, from the department, I imagine, telling the off duty LEO whether to spring into "Cop Mode" or not. Although I'm sure every situation demands it's own evaluation, felony or not.

-boing
 
I agree with the sentiments expressed above. Off Duty, I have more "power" or "privilege" or "rights" (have I made everyone happy yet?) with my CCW permit than I do my badge. Of course, I am entitled to enforce the laws of the state, but so, technically and to a certain extent, could anyone (Citizens Arrest, etc...).
 
Only in a life threating situation[IE..FORCEABLE FELONY] would i act OR interveen off duty. There are too many lawyers out there just waiting to lay there mitts on me or any other officer who with the best of intentions stepped fowardand act in these types of situations. 12-34hom.
 
boing,

Sir, I have nothing to hide. It seems that when your curiosity gets the best of you, I sense a air of antagonism in your questions. I seem to remember a similar thread that you started back in April or May in the wake of a police shooting. Myself and others had tried to get you to see the whole picture, but it seemed that you were not reading the text.
As far as off duty obligations are concerned,
I was taught by my uncle (20+ years LE), that when you are off duty, and not in uniform, you are vulnerable. If an officer, let's say is off and is in a stop and rob trying to get
a quart of milk and some bad guys decide to empty the register, the officer has the following options: 1. take no agressive action and be observant for description of bgs and direction of travel, 2. take action if armed, but only if the situation warrants
it. Option 2 is a no win because there is no back up, officer has no intel on # of bgs and
their location, and now if the officer draws and id's himself, he is risking a catastrophe
with bystanders getting harmed by his actions.
A very close friend of mine was shot and killed in CA in 95 in a situation similiar to #2. I could never" monday morning" his actions in his situation. The story I got on the incident was he was in line at the store and a bg approached the clerk and demanded money. She paniced, the bg began to strike the clerk with a pistol. My friend id's himself and draws down on bg. Bg #2 was behind a set of shelves and fires on my friend, hitting him 3x. Bgs flee, my friend gets up and pursues and returns fire wounding
1 bg. There is bg #3 in car outside the store.He crawled to a phone and called it in with full descriptions of bgs and vehicle. Bgs caught shortly after. He passed away at the scene.Bgs turn out to be ages 17-19. There was some b.s. on prosecution because of the ages. Old enough to do it, old enough to pay the consequences. Look, I'm not trying to be an assh****, but if you get a chance do some ride alongs, do it. Try to go on all the shifts to get a sense of what goes on. I just feel that t.v. and news rags distort facts and events in order to make money. See it for your self.
 
I for one could not stand around and watch someone getting the sh**t beat out of them. In Kansas, that is just a misdmeanor but I certainly would not stand by while some guy was pounding on a woman. I know that there are all kinds of problems possible but I am willing to assume those risks when I take the oath. My willingness to assume those risks does not change just because I am off duty. I believe that we all have a duty to protect the weak, that is what the job is all about. I am not some rookie that has his head up his a*s. I have been an officer since 1977. My take on this issue may be colored by my law enforcement experience in rural areas only. Stubby
 
Lewis - I carry my badge and ID in a separate
case from my wallet. There was an article in the Police Marksman several years ago about how we "advertise" who we are with our off duty attire. It went into things like clipping your badge to your belt and openly carrying your off duty weapon in the summer, wearing FOP jackets and those funny T shirts that Galls and US Cav sells to the mall. It just suggests you wear them to defensive tactics refreser training and things like that. Another thing that has gotten popular here in Southern Illinois is vanity plates with department initials and ID numbers on them. You even see a lot of State Troopers buying them. Ironically the author of article said that his son picked out an off duty officer in the mall by the wact he HAD two wallets. So I guess that issue is a Catch 22, carry just one wallet and risk giving up your badge and ID in a street robbery or having someone spot you as you pay for you gas etc. or have someone "in the know" like the author's son "make" you because he notices you have two wallets.

As to off duty actions, I agree with the others that only unless lives were endangered. Other wise I'd just concentrate on being the best witness possible. The only exception to that would be to go to the aid of another officer. Of course I'm not beyond using my cell phone or the department radio in my pickup to call officers who are on duty. It makes much more sense to have the officers who are on duty, and have body armor, portable radios, OC, ASPs, and handcuffs handle the police work.

Jeff
 
As a civilian, it is very helpful to read this thread in terms of considering my own actions in such situations. Similar to some of our 'tactics' discussions. Thanks.

stubby, you don't mean that pistol-whipping is a misdemeanor in your state, do you?
 
ursus: I didn't start that thread, but I remember it, and it was pretty contentious. I'm definitely not antagonistic towards police officers. Maybe it seems that way because I'm more inclined to post extensively about controversial issues.

Actually, I agree with almost everything I read here from LEOs. I just refrain from posting "Yeah, well, I agree with that. -boing" Maybe I should start. Just another way of saying "Thank you for taking all the risks that I don't have to take. I support you." You suggested in the other thread that I take a ride-along, and that idea has been knocking around in my head since. And if I ever do, it will be because of your suggestion.

I know you're not trying to be an @sshole, and I hope you don't think that I think of you that way. I don't. In fact (and no, I'm not being flippant), thank you, ursus, for taking all the risks that I don't have to take. I do support you. Even if it seems otherwise from what I've posted on this board.

-boing
 
Guys, I think it may have been my contribution to that thread to which boing is referring.
I did not refer to an obligation to act in a certain scenario. My statement was that while I feel that I, as a peace officer, have no more RIGHT to be armed than a private citizen, I do have more of an OBLIGATION to be armed than a private citizen, since the public expects me to be able to act when necessary, on or off duty, whereas a private citizen has (or should have) the right to be armed or not, by choice. I have lived nearly all my life, and worked as a Deputy for 20 years, in a county in eastern Kansas with a population of 20,000, and nearly everyone recognizes me. Unfortunately, Kansas does not have a CCW law, and while it is perfectly legal for a private citizen to carry openly unless prohibited by local ordnance, very few choose to do so.
As for the scenario he mentioned, it was a robbery at a grocery/convenience store (aka
'stop-n-rob') during which another customer in line would look at me and say, 'Hey, you're a cop, do something!" I mentioned that scenario only because (1) off-duty police officers HAVE been killed in very similar situations when inadvertenly identified as a LEO by another customer, and in one case I heard of, by a family member, and (2) I will admit it, I was being a little (what's the word I want, here, 'sarcastic,' or 'facetious,' maybe?) and perhaps that may not have been the correct way to reply to the subject.
If I found myself in the situation of being in the wrong place at the wrong time when off duty, as long as I can, I would definitely prefer to keep my mouth shut and try to be the best little living witness I can be, (and at the same time be looking for potential cover) but like stubby, if lives are placed in jeoparday, (mine or anyone else's) I would be compelled to take some sort of action, IF I can do so without further endangering innocent lives. Each situation is a judgement call.
Stay safe.
 
boing,

Thank you and I appreciate and respect your
comments. I think that every once and awhile I get a little frustrated with all the second guessing and "what if" b.s. I think that sometimes the media and others think that LE are supermen. Quite the contrary, and when we are in the public we are looked upon to solve the problem. Damned if we do, damned if we don't. Once again thank you sir.
 
:)

Very gracious of you.

I fully understand that you, and all LEOs, get frustrated, especially by the second guessing (some of which I am guilty of). But I will never say, "I understand just how you feel..." because I've never been there.

And, for the record, I would never consider a job in LE. It's the worst "customer service" nightmare I can possibly imagine, and everyone is watching. The deadly dangerous part isn't so great, either.

Did you really think I was IA? Or is that a reference "second guessers"?

-boing
 
No. Just my way of being sarcastic. I just sometimes feel that the LE officer role has become unfocused and fuzzy. Too much manipulation and tampering by the liberal mentality. But that is why an officer's discretion is just as important to him as are his weapons. P.S. the job has it's moments, believe me. Some good, some bad.(the bad times don't always involve bgs) BTW, ask all the questions you want, if I can't provide an answer, I'll find someone who can.

[This message has been edited by ursus (edited July 17, 1999).]
 
"the LE officer role has become unfocused and fuzzy."

How do you mean, exactly? The babysitter role of solving everyone's little problems?

-boing
 
Yes. That along with the mixed messages the rank and file get from the brass and higher ups. Ex. The no load gutless bastards that stand behind Klinton during photo ops and dog and pony shows.
 
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