Of Boycotts and Forgiveness

Exiled And Addicted

Retired Screen Name
I apologize if this is redundant (I've haven't had time to read all the threads), but there was some talk a few days ago advocating forgiveness of Ruger and Colt for their "minor sins" (paraphrase), and they've changed leadership, and they're American companies, so give them a break, etc., etc.

After thinking about this, I have to call absolute bullcrap on this. If those companies acquiesced in some communist gun control like the '94 ban, then I believe we must stand together in an unequivocal absolute boycott UNTIL SUCH TIME THEY HAVE UNDONE THE DAMAGE THEY HAVE CONTRIBUTED TO. If Ruger called for a 10-round limit, as someone said, they should be boycotted until one of two things happen: they are out of business, or they lead the charge in SUCCESSFULLY repeal the gun control horsecrap they caused. Apologies ain't good enough. Lip service (formally repudiating prior statements & policies) ain't good enough. Change of leadership AIN'T GOOD ENOUGH. Nothing should stop an absolute boycott until they have remedied the damage they have caused. If anyone agrees, let's look into this some more, because though Bill Ruger Sr. is a good man etc. etc., it doesn't matter; if we don't fight the good strong fight and reject all policies of appeasement, we will lose the battle without question. I think we should look into full boycotts of Ruger, Colt, and others, until they take a leadership role in righting the wrong. Well?
 
Well, if, as you say, A company had "called for" some offensive restriction, you are right that they should be enemy #1.

I don't think that was the case.

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-Essayons
 
Fine line here.
Tactics would recommend that we support US firearms manufacturers....when they're gone, PC politicians will have no problem getting an import ban thru. Principles would recommend that we boycott turncoat manufacturers.

It's an individual call....and a tough one.
Rich
 
Rich; Great clarity from your SJ roots. :)
We shouldnt have any trouble with this one.
At least for the time being we need to support US gunmakers.
I would like to know the truth about Bill Ruger and what he is supposed to have done. What are the facts?

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Better days to be,

Ed
 
Following up Rob...

Ruger didn't invent the concept of decreased mag size. Look, he took the exact same shot that all of us have!...i.e. compromise, a business decision, a gamble. Rightly or wrongly he pulled a "Chamberlain".

Thinking about this, most of us are no better . We all make choices that have backfired. How many of you haven't voted for a pro- RKBA because he/she was pro choice? You don't vote for a pro-self defense person because they won't take a pro-stand on prayer in school? You don't support 3rd party people until the Gen'l election? You (including myself) expect and require a messiah, a one shot fixer. Those that are selling, and I mean it in the literal sense "selling", us into slavery have been at it for 60 yrs...little by little. Finally it got thru our thick skulls that this is what has happened and we expect the instant fix. Ain't gonna happen but now, like in WWII we start the uphill fight. We can win if we all think and don't require overnight victory

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"



[This message has been edited by DC (edited March 01, 1999).]
 
You have to remember that this is bussiness. These people have to consider the future of their company, reponsibility to stock holders, job security for employees,etc and so on. To try and drive these companys out of bussiness would be a mistake. Not only would it hurt our cause, but would cause economic pain for many of our fellow shooters. They made a mistake, we all make mistakes. Such is the nature of the human animal.
 
... and we must bear the results of those mistakes and correct our mistakes when possible.

First, let's find out exactly what happened.

Second, let's see if they will take responsibility for, and correct, any perceived transgressions.

Third, then let's judge their sustained political views.

You folks know more about this than I do. How about sharing the "rest of the story" with us, please? Maybe we then can reach a consensus.

Fair?

[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited March 02, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited March 02, 1999).]
 
I am appalled by the responses of some here. Grayfox, I believe you could not be more wrong. Yes, you are right; they are businesses that have all sorts of legitamite interests to protect. But you miss the point entirely (as does DC). The question is SO WHAT? Who gives a flying rat's ass? (other than those companies). Of course they are required to make business decisions. The whole purpose of a boycott is to influence those business decisions by making door #2 more appealing to them economically. You are wrong about hurting shooters. A hundred different companies would pop up to take their places, making fine products. What hurts shooter's is not taking a stance, but rather following the total sheepishness policies of appeasement that Grayfox has bought into. They have led you straight down the primrose path. Screw Ruger. Screw Colt. There are dozens of fine manufacturers that don't advocate gun control for "business reasons". Rich, you are basically right; we must decide which tactic is best from an overall standpoint. But you jump the gun to suggest that a full boycott is an ill-advised tactic. If we simply substitute the exact same amount of dollars spent on Ruger, etc., and spend them on other American companies instead, then the American gun industry will have the exact same amount of economic clout as before; the same number of dollars are going in. I am suggesting boycotts of NEW products from these companies, not trade of existing products. A sure sign of true repentence is taking an active role in righting the wrong. They haven't done that yet. I cannot believe that people posting on the "legal & political" portion of TFL would actually advocate being total sheep as do DC and Grayfox, in a round about way. You are the type of people who would actually vote for the Bill Clinton's of the world, because he's so "good" on other policies, aren't you? Admit it if I'm right. You don't truly comprehend that the second amendment is the First Right. Without this right, all others are meaningless. If a pol is square on with your beliefs as to other issues, but not RKBA, that's irrelevant. He must not be elected. In a free democracy, the truth about the "other issues" will eventually come out and the "right" balance of policies will take place; so short-run errors of these other policies are not detrimental to the long-run health of our nation. The RKBA, on the other hand, is the first right because without it, WE MAY NOT BE ABLE TO PRESERVE THE DEMOCRACY that leads to good decisions on all other social policies. Witness China. So what I am suggesting is that any right-thinking gun owner will make RKBA stances the unequivoal litmus test of the pol, because all other issues are less than pale by comparison; they are so unimportant as to be practically irrelevant, AT LEAST UNTIL SUCH TIME AS THE SUPREME COURT HAS UPHELD OUR RIGHTS so we can breathe easier. Until then, the only issue I'm concerned with as an American is the long-run preservation of a free democratic society, which cannot be maintained indefinitely without the RKBA.

DC, think about what you're saying: "Rightly or wrongly, he pulled a Chamberlain". You have indeed surmised the situation. What I am saying is that he did it WRONGLY!!!!!!!! and should not be forgiven until repentence is forthcoming. If we don't hurt these folks economically, and thereby help the companies that do take pro-RKBA stances (there are many), then we will lose the battle in the long run. Everyone is right who said that we cannot expect victory overnight, but conversely, we cannot expect victory EVER if we don't BEGIN doing something NOW; and tomorrow; and the next day; and the next. The ongoing boycotts of non-gun-industry antis should be kept up; BUT they are an entirely separate matter from which gun-industry firms out to be boycotted in addition. I am shocked at the ho-hum responses, and can now see why the antis have in fact been able to whittle away our rights over time; because of the gun-owning marginally-concerned-but-nevertheless Clinton-loving folks like my uncle Allan and apparently, Grayfox and DC (and others?). What gives?

DC, of course we make mistakes. Of course they make mistakes, too. But if no penalties ever accrue from those mistakes, the policies will not change. They must be held accountable for their actions. We must attempt to influence future choices by present action about past choices. And the only way to influence a company (other than gov't regulation) whose goal is making a profit, is to affect them economically. WHY NOT do everything we can, instead of just of few things (i.e. why not boycott "bad" gun-industry firms in addition to non-gun-industry antis)? Look, there are VERY FEW things that we as gun owners have control over, right? We can vote the right politicians, but they can change their tune immediately after the election and vote the other way. Since there are so few things we actually have control over which will ultimately affect our right (boycotts being one of them), we MUST take advantage of ALL of them, not just some! DC, you are right about our freedoms being slowly taken, which is all the more reason to do all things possible to turn the huge tide back the other direction over time. I don't understand you philosophy on this one.

[This message has been edited by Exiled And Addicted (edited March 02, 1999).]
 
Hmmmm...
This is the first time I've ever been branded a Clinton lover.

E&A...you have the luxury of Monday morning quarterbacking in your judgement of Ruger. So now you can feel all sanctimonious and superior because he chose wrong...what do you do? Do you do anything about this issue? Unless you are posting from prison, your lofty stance means squat. Do you have to make business decisions when the apparent prevailing political wind turns against your business? I doubt that most of us believed that the anti-gunners would have kept harping on and on after every win.

What constitutes repentence in your mind? You say "a hundred companies will take their place"...oh yeah right, there are tons of replacement companies just itching to get into the gun biz. So boycott Ruger and Colt, drive them out of business and what have you gained? You just invigorate the antis, 2 major manufacturers erased and fewer to go after. You can do what ever you wish, though I doubt its much. I daresay most of us here have drawn our line in the sand.
*************8
E&A...I notice you are a lawyer. Tell me what you have done about gun control laws? Have you instituted any Constitutionally based suits? Any Vermont style CCW actions on your part?


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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"



[This message has been edited by DC (edited March 02, 1999).]
 
Well, E&F, you're right. 100%. Good news is, Ruger, Colt and others seem to agree, and have helped FIRE a moderate weasely rodent within the NRA and steer them in a more combative direction.

Political lesson #1: DO try not to attack your allies. With this, I'd say continuing the boycotts is bordering on lunacy:

-----------------------------------

The Wall Street Journal -- March 2, 1999
By Paul M. Barrett and Vanessa O'connell
Staff Reporters of The Wall Street Journal


Hard-liners in the gun industry have just issued a battle cry.

Facing a new wave of litigation, more militant elements within the industry have
orchestrated the ouster of trade-association executive Richard Feldman, whom they viewed as too inclined toward compromise and too quick to grandstand in the media.

Mr. Feldman's demise represents the triumph of the industry's more rigid factions and advocacy groups at a moment when it appeared that there might be serious consideration given to finding alternatives to a prolonged court fight with cities seeking to recover the public costs of gun violence. And it points to a period of all-out defense against the growing wave of municipal lawsuits,
combined with a legislative drive to pass state laws to block such litigation
altogether.

On Saturday, representatives of the trade group headed by Mr. Feldman, the American Shooting Sports Council, announced at a private industry gathering in Phoenix that he would turn in his resignation as soon as this week.

The abrupt ouster dooms quiet efforts by Mr. Feldman to open lines of communication to representatives of cities such as New Orleans, which have sued, and those such as Philadelphia, which are considering doing so. Several major gun and ammunition manufacturers had made Mr. Feldman's ouster a priority, but his fate was sealed when the politically powerful National Rifle Association decided last week to get him fired, according to some people familiar with the situation.

"The NRA has been gunning for him, and last week's headlines gave them the ammunition to get it done," said a senior industry official, referring to articles in The Wall Street Journal about preliminary contacts between Mr. Feldman's organization and an attorney for New Orleans. Officials with major gun manufacturers, including Colt's Manufacturing Co. and Sturm, Ruger & Co., which believe they can beat the city suits one-by-one in court, also backed Mr. Feldman's ouster.

Mr. Feldman has urged gun makers to mend their traditionally fractious ways, hire more high-powered lawyers who might be better-equipped to forge a national
settlement, and develop a more sophisticated public-relations pitch. But many of his clients, who have successfully fended off less-threatening lawsuits on their own for years, aren't yet convinced that they need a new strategy. Some of the leading defense litigators who have successfully represented the industry likewise have urged that Mr. Feldman be stifled.

In December, in fact, rumors began swirling that Mr. Feldman was in danger of being fired for his outspokenness, and he acknowledged at the time that "the long knives are out."

Yesterday, some industry executives said that no official steps had been taken. "To get rid of him would take some action from the board, and I have received no notices of any impending meetings," said Michael Saporito, senior vice president of RSR Group, a big gun distributor in Winter Park, Fla., and a member of the American Shooting Sports Council's board of directors. "This industry is rife with scuttlebutt."

But Mr. Feldman himself isn't denying the scuttlebutt. "I'm still executive director" of the trade group, but "that is subject to change within the next 24 hours to 48 hours," he said from his Atlanta headquarters.

James Baker, the NRA's chief lobbyist and a leading anti-Feldman activist, didn't return phone calls seeking comment.

Ironically, Mr. Feldman got the hook at an industry gathering devoted to fostering the sort of solidarity he had long advocated. The NRA, which represents gun owners, has dominated the gun debate for decades, but its
reputation for unswerving zealotry caused worry among manufacturers and suppliers in the late 1980s. In 1989, the industry formed a separate trade group, the American Shooting Sports Council, to represent its commercial and political interests. Two years later, Mr. Feldman, a former NRA staffer and veteran Republican political operative, was hired as the group's executive director.

His stance has angered the NRA before. For example, Mr. Feldman's opposition to the 1993 Brady gun-control law, which introduced a five-day waiting period and, more recently, "instant checks" of gun buyers' backgrounds, was less absolute than the NRA's.

In October 1997, he brokered a deal with the Clinton administration under which most major handgun makers agreed to include child-safety locks with their products. The NRA blasted participants in the deal for being "conned into the notion of making your business `acceptable' to a wider non-gun-owning audience." Mr. Feldman's compromise, nevertheless, ended efforts to legislate more
aggressive safety measures at that time.

The fact that Mr. Feldman, 47 years old, was increasingly portrayed in the media as a more moderate spokesman for the industry also angered senior officials of the NRA and of some gun manufacturers, including Sturm Ruger and Colt's. But Mr. Feldman, who jokes about his friendly relationship with the press and
occasionally refers disparagingly to industry "dinosaurs," appeared to thrive on the controversy.

Once pro-gun-control himself, Mr. Feldman has said that he began shifting his views while serving as a police officer in Cambridge, Mass., where he saw law-abiding store keepers who wanted gun licenses for self-protection. Today, he owns more than 100 firearms himself but says he rarely goes hunting or target
shooting.

His foes quickly grew impatient with Mr. Feldman's response to the municipal
litigation. He has been talking quietly for more than a year with Philadelphia Mayor Edward Rendell, who first raised the prospect of a city lawsuit in 1997. The two have discussed Mr. Rendell's ideas for greater regulation of the industry, including advertising restrictions, mandated safety technology and limits on the number of guns a consumer may buy per month or year.

The talks haven't produced a compromise, but Philadelphia and a number of other cities that Mr. Rendell has said could coordinate their efforts still haven't sued the industry. Five municipalities have sued so far.

Mr. Feldman explored a number of ways that the industry might short-circuit litigation. In late January, he ran into John Coale, a lawyer for New Orleans, at a briefing on the gun litigation at the conservative Washington Legal Foundation. According to an interview with Mr. Feldman last week, that meeting
prompted Mr. Coale to call and arrange a meeting with Robert Ricker, the American Shooting Sports Council's chief lobbyist in Washington.

At a half-hour meeting in mid-February between Messrs. Coale and Ricker, "the sum and substance was: Would we consider and be interested in having substantive discussion at some point in the future? The answer was yes," Mr. Feldman said last week.

Although Mr. Feldman had received approval for this foray from some of his board members, others in the industry and at the NRA exploded over what they saw as a signal of weakness. Of particular concern to the NRA, whose influence among gun buyers still commands tremendous industry respect, was the potential that any settlement deal would include new government controls on gun making or marketing.

"There will be no compromise" including such legislative restrictions, Mr. Baker, the top NRA lobbyist, said last week.

Exacerbating anxiety, last month a Brooklyn, N.Y., federal court jury -- for the first time ever -- found in a lawsuit filed on behalf of the families of seven shooting victims that 15 out of 25 gun manufacturers had distributed guns negligently. "That should have helped make [Mr. Feldman's] point that we need to have a more unified front, that more of the city suits were coming, that it would be tough to fight them one-by-one," said an industry official sympathetic to Mr. Feldman.

Instead, the Brooklyn verdict heightened tension and demands that Mr. Feldman depart.

Industry representatives headed for Phoenix late last week for a meeting aimed at creating a new umbrella organization that would emphasize links to hunting and target shooting and administer a new joint industry fund for legislative and legal costs. Each company is expected to contribute 1% of its sales to the fund, which will be overseen by the Hunting & Shooting Sports Heritage Foundation.

But the NRA and certain gun-company representatives arrived in the Arizona
desert with another agenda: Mr. Feldman's removal. In the days leading up to the
meeting, he had received some support from manufacturers that focus heavily on the law-enforcement market and therefore are more inclined to maintain good relations with municipal leaders, including the mayors of cities that have filed suit. These companies include Glock Inc. and Smith & Wesson Corp.

In a flurry of conference calls last week, however, it gradually became clear that companies urging a tougher line -- encouraged by the NRA's Mr. Baker -- wouldn't back off. Without consulting Mr. Feldman, members of his board decided to make a pre-emptive move.

Selecting as their spokesman Ray Oeltjen, an affable marketing vice president with Leupold & Stevens Inc. of Beaverton, Ore., which manufactures gun sights and other accoutrements, the American Shooting Sports Council board members announced to others at the Phoenix meeting Saturday that to avoid "counterproductive" feuding, Mr. Feldman would be asked to step down. Mr. Oeltjen told the gathering that Mr. Feldman, who wasn't at the meeting, had worked hard for the industry and that his removal caused great regret.

Copyright © 1999 Dow Jones & Company, Inc.
 
Gee, Was it something I said that got Exiled and Addicted so upset?
I stand by my original post. DC is right. You seem to be gifted with 20/20 hindsite. To support a boycott would be playing right into the anti-gunners hands. They have been trying to divide us for years and now you want to help them. "We must hang together, or most assuridly, we will hang seperately"-Benjamin Franklin

BTW: I'm not a sheep, I'm a fox. We're cunning you know.
 
OK, maybe y'all are right about unity and "hanging together." (I'd rather not hang at all) So, we don't boycott Colt and Ruger. I still think something needs to be done that will get the attention of the honchos at Colt, Ruger, and other gun manufacturers and give them the message that we don't like that crap.
 
By all means, contact any company you feel has done wrong and express your feelings. If enough voices are heard, change will happen. But I see no reason to try and drive them out of bussiness.
 
You know, with all the excitment over the USA Today thing, I;ve neglected other parts of the foprum, including this thread..

I just read DC's "follow up" to my post. While you (DC) and I clearly agree about the fact that what Ruger, colt, et al "DID" isn't the end of the world, though it was a bad decision, I feel the need to VENT...

I am not Anti-Abortion.

I am not in favor of Prayer in School.

In fact, since 1992 or so, I have been a one issue voter: Individual Freedom. With Gun Rights being on the top of my list of possible individual freedoms, as that one can protect any others. Individual students have the right to pray whenver they want to in school, at least any public or private school that I have ever heard of. "Organized" school prayer would be a distinct conflict of the Church & State seperation and could oppress the beliefs of some students, creating Undue pressure in an already stressful environment. It encourages "group" thinking and turns what is likely the most private and personal act (one's conversation with one's entity of choice) into a show that you perform for your peers. I could go on.....

I know this is not the time or the place and I already regret this post, but I am really tired of being label "Right Wing Religous Fanatic" just becuase I am a Radical Gun Nut. It is rather insulting.... ;)

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-Essayons
 
I think that our strength lies in the fact that we all support the Second Amendment AND we have diverse backgrounds and sometimes opposing stands on other issues.

I oppose abortion because it is murder.
I oppose banning school prayer on the basis "separation of church and state"

This forun includes many people that I can disagree with on many issues but in general we are all supporters of the Second Amendment.Lets concentrate on that!

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Better days to be,

Ed
 
Isn't interesting how we talk about the separation of Church and State and yet group prayers are offered in the White house and Capitol building on a regular basis.

I have also been told, but have not researched, that the separation of Church and State is a one way road, in that the State will make no rule regarding the Church.

But, in a Federally funded educational institution, I suppose that they can make all the rules that they want to regarding the behaviour that can or can not be exhibited within those walls.

Someone want to school ( :D) me on this one?

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John/az

"Just because something is popular, does not make it right."
 
John..

Regarding prayer in school: officially it applies to school mandated, directed and organized prayer. The concept is to dissuade that the idea that the State is in any way dictating one's religious training.
In terms of prayer in the Whitehouse...that is voluntary and a 1st amendment issue.

The concept of the separation of church and state had a relevant significance that the wise founding fathers saw as important enough to include in our charter documents. The Pilgrims immigrated here to escape religious intolerance at the hands of The Church of England. The religious intolerance and tyranny sprang up in New England (Salem) as a locally governmental mandate.

Religion is a personal issue between a person and their belief(or lack thereof) in a higher power. Any official mandate to engage in religious abulutions is merely an application of forced group-think. I find it sadly ironic and, yes, hypocritical therefore that people who complain and gripe about loss of 2nd Amendment rights and the wisdom of the Founding Fathers turn around and demand some degree of 1st and 9th amendment infringment based on mere apperance of group-think.

The founding fathers came up with what they believed were standards that ALL PEOPLE could live by. Unfortunately we never ever learn.

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"
 
Ed,

How COULD anyone "BAN" a child from praying in school?

That is impossible.

The issue is children who do not wish to pray in the popular manner (defined I suppose by whichever faith has the majority at that school? or maybe the principal's beliefs? maybe a teachers? The school board?) being forced to listen to someone else lead an organized prayer. One that is apparently "suported" byt he school system by the use of the PA system and the donation of time from the otherwise busy daily schedule.

One of my least popular (and proudest) moments was helping to eradicate organized school prayer at a highschool that I relocated to. There was one popular church that sorta ran the school board. Within a year the principal, 2 members of the board and several teachers were all gone from the system. This church had come pretty radical views and were generally nutso. Several Jewish kids and good ol' Agnostic me were told that we had to attend a madatory prayer assembly during the school day.. yeah right.. if they just would've let me go to the library or something I would've ignored it, but they sai dno.. so I said "Constitution, ever hear of it?".. They hadn't, but they learned.

Tell ya what.. anyone who REALLY wants to talk about his.. let's start an Email conversation... As Ed said, TFL is a place where we should concentrate on what we agree on or exchange firearms knowledge. :)
 
I said I was against banning school prayer on the basis of separation of church and state.
I did not say that I am in favor of school prayer.I do not think that the Constitution is properly used as a basis for banning it.
I believe the founding fathers having seen the problems with having tne Church of England as the State religion did not want this new nation to have an official religion.
I dont see school prayer addressed in the Constitution.

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Better days to be,

Ed
 
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