Object lesson in how (not) to handle a gun
- Thread starter Mike Irwin
- Start date
gearhounds
New member
MC 1911- No offense to you in advance; the point many make here, myself included, is that clearly basic safety rules were not adhered to in this case. Whether it be by the RO or the BIL. I have had misfires before (no late detonations, thankfully), but the same principals apply as if the gun is loaded and ready to shoot with no known malfunction- the muzzle stays in a safe direction. If we take the story at face value, all things being equal, this was a failure to do so.
I am also an RO for my agency, as well as instructor. To me all the info you mention regarding blame is inconsequential. If the weapon had been pointed down range when it went off, no injury, no safety foul, maybe a "oh ****" moment that would reinforce good safe behavior (glad I had the damn thing pointed somewhere safe).
Sadly, it looks like this poor guy has a long road ahead of him no matter who's fault it was.
I am also an RO for my agency, as well as instructor. To me all the info you mention regarding blame is inconsequential. If the weapon had been pointed down range when it went off, no injury, no safety foul, maybe a "oh ****" moment that would reinforce good safe behavior (glad I had the damn thing pointed somewhere safe).
Sadly, it looks like this poor guy has a long road ahead of him no matter who's fault it was.
Gearhounds,No offense taken and I agree with you 100%. My rant, if you will, was that so many seemed to blame the RO. Perhaps I just took it the wrong way.
When I clear a gun for a customer (daily) they are out of the booth and behind me. I also stand sideways so the gun is pointed down range and it never occured to me to do it any other way.
Most people come in spend an hour then leave. I'm there (as I'm sure you are) 8 - 9 hours a day and could write a book on the things I've seen. I chose this job because I enjoy the sport and the people.The pay doesn't even cover my ammo or guns (LOL).
My apologies if I took things out of context!
When I clear a gun for a customer (daily) they are out of the booth and behind me. I also stand sideways so the gun is pointed down range and it never occured to me to do it any other way.
Most people come in spend an hour then leave. I'm there (as I'm sure you are) 8 - 9 hours a day and could write a book on the things I've seen. I chose this job because I enjoy the sport and the people.The pay doesn't even cover my ammo or guns (LOL).
My apologies if I took things out of context!
Mike Irwin
Staff
"I'm SURE none of you have handed a loaded gun to your buddies to try."
You're damned right I haven't. No way, no how, never.
If it's a semi-auto, the slide is locked back.
If it's a revolver, the cylinder is open.
If we're at a shooting range that has benches, the gun is as above and ON the table top.
"While I have no reason to doubt the OP's story,does anyone think the co-worker would spin the story to obsolve his BIL of any responsibility?"
My co-worker never had time to really spin the story. He was hanging up with his sister while he was outside my cube. He reported this to me seconds after he got off the phone with his sister, and I have simply reiterated what I heard from him.
At the time I posted this, his BIL was in, or waiting to go in, to his first surgery. All of the facts are unknown at this point.
His only words on responsibility were to indicate (in his opinion) that they were safely handling the gun by keeping it pointed at the ground.
I quickly informed him that that was in NO way or manner to handle a loaded, jammed gun.
"I'm not going to say its impossible for a "jammed" gun to fire but in 56 years I've never seen it nor have I seen a gun fire without a finger on the trigger."
It's unknown whose finger was on the trigger. I agree with you that it is highly unlikely that the gun simply fired on its own, but it is possible if there was a gross defect or broken parts in the mechanism. Unlikely, but anything is possible.
"Stupid & irresponsible behavior have no place on the range."
Agree 100%. I've been called on safety lapses at the range before. I wouldn't get a case of ass unless the RO is being unreasonable (and I've seen a couple of ROs be VERY unreasonable with people for minor safety lapses, such as not standing far enough forward in the shooting booth when firing.) There's absolutely no reason for an RO's first interaction with a shooter to be red-faced screaming, spit flying, chest thumping, and cursing.
"My rant, if you will, was that so many seemed to blame the RO. Perhaps I just took it the wrong way."
IF the range officer was involved in passing a loaded and apparently defective gun from person to person, I'm sorry, then he bears a LARGE part of the blame. Range officers are supposed to know better. I've never been a range officer and I damned well know better.
You're damned right I haven't. No way, no how, never.
If it's a semi-auto, the slide is locked back.
If it's a revolver, the cylinder is open.
If we're at a shooting range that has benches, the gun is as above and ON the table top.
"While I have no reason to doubt the OP's story,does anyone think the co-worker would spin the story to obsolve his BIL of any responsibility?"
My co-worker never had time to really spin the story. He was hanging up with his sister while he was outside my cube. He reported this to me seconds after he got off the phone with his sister, and I have simply reiterated what I heard from him.
At the time I posted this, his BIL was in, or waiting to go in, to his first surgery. All of the facts are unknown at this point.
His only words on responsibility were to indicate (in his opinion) that they were safely handling the gun by keeping it pointed at the ground.
I quickly informed him that that was in NO way or manner to handle a loaded, jammed gun.
"I'm not going to say its impossible for a "jammed" gun to fire but in 56 years I've never seen it nor have I seen a gun fire without a finger on the trigger."
It's unknown whose finger was on the trigger. I agree with you that it is highly unlikely that the gun simply fired on its own, but it is possible if there was a gross defect or broken parts in the mechanism. Unlikely, but anything is possible.
"Stupid & irresponsible behavior have no place on the range."
Agree 100%. I've been called on safety lapses at the range before. I wouldn't get a case of ass unless the RO is being unreasonable (and I've seen a couple of ROs be VERY unreasonable with people for minor safety lapses, such as not standing far enough forward in the shooting booth when firing.) There's absolutely no reason for an RO's first interaction with a shooter to be red-faced screaming, spit flying, chest thumping, and cursing.
"My rant, if you will, was that so many seemed to blame the RO. Perhaps I just took it the wrong way."
IF the range officer was involved in passing a loaded and apparently defective gun from person to person, I'm sorry, then he bears a LARGE part of the blame. Range officers are supposed to know better. I've never been a range officer and I damned well know better.
I have had a gun fire in MY hands with no fingers near the trigger. The gun was a 400 Astra and my wife was shooting it and thought she had a miss-fire. She carefully handed the gun to me and I had it in my right hand, pointed to my left toward the woods with my finger well away from the trigger and I reached for the barrel between the muzzle and breech to open the chamber and see if there was a round in the chamber. The INSTANT my hand applied pressure to the barrel to slide it back, the gun fired! The bullet passed under my palm, ricocheted off the concrete out into the woods splashing a friends leg with concrete kicked up by the bullet (no blood/injuries thank God!).
Yes, I SHOULD have taken the gun from her on the line and never let it point anywhere but down range. Because I WAS careful in that I kept the muzzle directed away from anyone, no on was shot BUT it COULD and SHOULD have been handled better.
The point is, guns CAN go off without a finger on the trigger! Yes, they require SOME outside force of some sort as they do NOT just go off on their own.
Yes, I SHOULD have taken the gun from her on the line and never let it point anywhere but down range. Because I WAS careful in that I kept the muzzle directed away from anyone, no on was shot BUT it COULD and SHOULD have been handled better.
The point is, guns CAN go off without a finger on the trigger! Yes, they require SOME outside force of some sort as they do NOT just go off on their own.
Mike my comments were not directed at you, in fact I stated I had no reason to doubt your story. Your co worker was apparently getting the story now from his sister. Under such stressfull events its possible to get some things wrong.
I will agree that some RO's overreact to minor things & I do not condone it but they are human.It sounds like you would make a good RO perhaps you should try it once. It can be a real
!
I will agree that some RO's overreact to minor things & I do not condone it but they are human.It sounds like you would make a good RO perhaps you should try it once. It can be a real
!Mike Irwin
Staff
I know they weren't directed at me. I was simply explaining and responding to the comments you made.
Lost Sheep
New member
Relative danger
My personal experience is that it will not rip fatigues, but will leave a small welt. I was standing next to the guy who got hit with a 7.62 NATO cartridge casing.
Your mileage may vary.
Lost Sheep
It IS that dangerous. Just not AS dangerous (as a chambered round). The cartridge case will fly off in some fairly random direction (maybe more than one if it rips apart), will likely be oddly shaped or jagged and could cut you. Even (as Momma said) take out an eye.Amin Parker said:
My personal experience is that it will not rip fatigues, but will leave a small welt. I was standing next to the guy who got hit with a 7.62 NATO cartridge casing.
Your mileage may vary.
Lost Sheep
FrankenMauser
New member
Among other things... I was hit in the wrist by a steel 7.62x39mm casing, that traveled about 25 feet. It still had enough velocity to cut deeply. ...And the impact left my entire arm numb for 4-5 hours.
As you said (and I failed to previously state), they ARE dangerous. They just, generally, don't have as much lethal potential as cartridges in the chamber of a firearm.
If we're talking about auto pistols tap rack bang is the way to go if we're talking about a jam.
If tap rack bang doesn't fix it then drop the mag and rack the slide repeatedly till the gun is clear. The gun can then be reloaded as usual.
There is a video of Clint Smith which someone posted in tactics and training last week that is very good with two exceptions.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfyULpEhmug&feature=player_detailpage#t=5s
The first exception is a hangfire or misfire.
If you experience a hang fire keep it pointed downrange for 30 seconds then eject the round.
The second exception is a squib.
If you think you've experienced a squib keep it pointed downrange for 30 seconds then drop the mag and rack the slide clearing the chamber.
Once you're sure the gun is unloaded then and only then check to make sure that there is no obstruction in the barrel.
The reason I'm bringing up a squib is that I experienced one several weeks ago.
I was wearing both earplugs and muffs and the gun went click on what I thought was the last round of the mag.
I simply thought that I may have had my hand in the way of the slide release and it didn't hold the slide back.
I inserted a new magazine and the gun failed to go into battery. Tap, Rack, the gun still didn't go into battery. Tap, Rack and again FTRTB.
I noticed that the bullets I was removing were set back a bit so I thought that I screwed up while reloading so I brought out another box that were made on a different press and with same results.
I finally brought the gun back to the safety table and disassembled it which is when I found the bullet lodged in the barrel.
The back of the bullet was black from the primer which made it very difficult to see.
Needless to say I had my guardian angel looking out for me that day.
Unless you're in a firefight fighting for your life there is no reason not to take a few seconds to ensure that there is no obstruction.
If tap rack bang doesn't fix it then drop the mag and rack the slide repeatedly till the gun is clear. The gun can then be reloaded as usual.
There is a video of Clint Smith which someone posted in tactics and training last week that is very good with two exceptions.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfyULpEhmug&feature=player_detailpage#t=5s
The first exception is a hangfire or misfire.
If you experience a hang fire keep it pointed downrange for 30 seconds then eject the round.
The second exception is a squib.
If you think you've experienced a squib keep it pointed downrange for 30 seconds then drop the mag and rack the slide clearing the chamber.
Once you're sure the gun is unloaded then and only then check to make sure that there is no obstruction in the barrel.
The reason I'm bringing up a squib is that I experienced one several weeks ago.
I was wearing both earplugs and muffs and the gun went click on what I thought was the last round of the mag.
I simply thought that I may have had my hand in the way of the slide release and it didn't hold the slide back.
I inserted a new magazine and the gun failed to go into battery. Tap, Rack, the gun still didn't go into battery. Tap, Rack and again FTRTB.
I noticed that the bullets I was removing were set back a bit so I thought that I screwed up while reloading so I brought out another box that were made on a different press and with same results.
I finally brought the gun back to the safety table and disassembled it which is when I found the bullet lodged in the barrel.
The back of the bullet was black from the primer which made it very difficult to see.
Needless to say I had my guardian angel looking out for me that day.
Unless you're in a firefight fighting for your life there is no reason not to take a few seconds to ensure that there is no obstruction.
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I'm probably not alone when I state that I've had a gun jam at the range before.
Probably not that unusual an event.
After the second jam or so, I usually unload it, safety it, bag it to take home,
and move on to something else.
Guns jam for a reason.(Not being smart here.)
If it's not something obvious when you clean it at home,
take it to your gunsmith.
Probably not that unusual an event.
After the second jam or so, I usually unload it, safety it, bag it to take home,
and move on to something else.
Guns jam for a reason.(Not being smart here.)
If it's not something obvious when you clean it at home,
take it to your gunsmith.
After a third jam, a range officer should ask that the firearm be unloaded in a safe position and retired until the problem has been identified and corrected. I'd say that the particular firearm does not "like" the brand of ammo being used. Each firearm typically operates well with specific loads. Some ramps to the chamber causes jams. Use a full jacketed target round in another brand, and make sure the ramp is clean and polished.
bbqncigars
New member
I'll chime in here and say that I can relate to both the BIL and the RO in this case. I suffered a rather painful injury when I ASSumed that the safety on my shotgun would prevent it from discharging, and that the gun was pointed safely at the ground. The tap on the barrel to dislodge snow (hunting in a blizzard) fired the gun. The ball of my big toe on my right foot was pulverized. The cause was snow/ice build up inside the action of the semi-auto. That was the first time I'd hunted with anything other than my s/s, and I ASSumed that gun would be equally impervious to weather. I also had a 1910 Mauser go FA when I racked the slide (due to crud inside). Since then, I fully disassemble and clean every firearm before firing it. Foot injuries suck big time, especially if it's the right foot. You can't even drive a car with a honking big cast on your right foot.