Object lesson in how (not) to handle a gun

M

Mike Irwin

Staff
A coworker just dropped by my cube to tell me about his brother in law. (All of this is his version only, I have no verification).

Apparently his BIL is a gun guy, too, and had bought a new gun.

He was having problems with it, and took it to the range (apparently it was jamming).

So he and a range officer are test firing the gun, and the way I understood it, it hung up again.

The range officer goes to pass it back to my coworker's BIL, and it discharged. The muzzle was pointing at the ground, but the round apparently hit him in the heel (direct or ricochet, I don't know) and largely destroyed it.

He's a firefighter, so it's going to be interesting to see how this impacts his job.

As I told my coworker, the BIL and range guy were being incredibly unsafe in how they were handing a supposedly jammed gun, and the BIL got a very painful and possibly debilitating lesson, and the range officer may well get a very expensive lesson if the BIL decides to sue.
 
The obvious way to avoid this kind of incident is to remember to follow the basics; weapon pointed only in a safe direction, loaded or not. Never point a weapon (loaded or unloaded) at something you are not ready to destroy. It is clear that this was an accident, but one that could easily been avoided. Hope the BIL will be ok, and that his job is not impacted.
 
They probably thought they were pointing it at the ground - it's just that their feet were standing on the ground they were pointing at. :eek:
Why would the gun discharge - was there contact with the trigger? Does a jammed gun automatically become a risk of an AD - I'm assuming you still have to put some pressure on that trigger?
 
All weapons should face down range. I dont understand what they could have been checking with the gun pointing at the floor, this is even more confusing since they both knew the gun was loaded and chambered.

In the event of a round not discharging, i drop the magazine, i will hold the weapon pointed at the target for half a minute, put it on the table facing down range with offending round still in the chamber for a moment and then eject. I am terrified of a round going off in my hand.
 
In the event of a round not discharging, i drop the magazine, i will hold the weapon pointed at the target for half a minute, put it on the table facing down range with offending round still in the chamber for a moment and then eject. I am terrified of a round going off in my hand.
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This brings up an interesting question for me. I typically proceed in a similar fashion when a round fails to discharge but is this the correct procedure? Have any of you had a round discharge after ejection when following this procedure? Forgive me Mr. Irwin, no intention on Hijacking your thread. I will start one if necessary.

I hope the BIL recovers quickly and learned something from his experience. And this goes to show you that even trained 'experts' (the range officer) make mistakes.
 
A round going off when it's not in a gun is not a big deal. You might need new underwear but it's very unlikely to hurt anyone. The most dangerous piece would be the case, not the bullet.



This is why the rules say "safe direction" and "never point at anything you're not willing to destroy". Some folks seem to get the idea that "down" is safe, or "up" is safe.
It all depends on what's down, or up, that we're not willing to destroy... like ankles.
 
I did witness an individual throw some .22lr shells in a big fire and for the most part, seemed like firecrackers, very little if any projectile debris.
 
[Thread Derail]

Amin Parker said:
Wow, had no idea that a round going off when not in the gun is not that dangerous.

Its good to know and thanx for info.
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I wouldn't recommend it.;) The yield strength of a cartridge case is about 12,000 psi. It takes pressure in the low 1000s of psi to push the bullet out the case. When that happens, the bullet has only the distance that it is pushed into the case in which to accelerate. Mind you, the bullet is typically much heavier than the case, so what actually happens is that the case moves away from the bullet more than the bullet moves away from the case.

Least ways, tests were done by the infamous "Mythbusters" with rounds placed in an oven and "cooked off". The only one that did any damage at all, IIRC, was a 50BMG, which the bullet cracked the oven window and the case dented the back of the oven


[/thread derail]
 
Actually, typically, the most dangerous part of a cartridge that goes off outside a gun isn't the case, it's the primer cup.

It's very short range, but being very light can develop more than enough velocity to penetrate skin.
 
Wow, had no idea that a round going off when not in the gun is not that dangerous.
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When I was a kid some idiot took a 22 and put it in a vise then whacked it on the end. It went off and hit the kid in his hand. It didnt tear his hand off but it was hurt enough he went to a hospital.

Could it have been due to it being a 22 and the case was in a vise compressing it? We threw some 22s in a fire opit, they were not as loud as a firecracker knda went pufft. So in a fire does the primer get set off or does the powder go off blowing the primer out? this would release the gas instead of letting it build pressure. So if the primer went off in a fire maybe the bullet would project?

Not gonna try it, wouldnt be prudent....
 
Priming compound cooks off in a fire, before the powder reaches ignition temperature. (I am not suggesting you try it, but if you throw "dummy rounds" with a live primer into a fire at the same time as live rounds; all will have the same outcome.) In many cartridges, the powder doesn't even help push the bullet out. The primer starts igniting the powder, as the primer's own detonation pushes the bullet out of the case. Once pressure is lost (bullet is out of the case), the powder "fizzles". -Remember, smokeless powder requires a pressure vessel, to burn properly.

So if the primer went off in a fire maybe the bullet would project?
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Nope. Doesn't matter. You still need the same internal pressure to achieve the same results. Since igniting the primer, versus igniting the powder, does not significantly change the mass of the casing or bullet.... the results are the same.


Primers rarely get ejected from casings, when cooked off in a fire. Primers generally have more tension in their primer pockets, than the bullets in the case mouth/neck, and primers have lower surface area than the base of the bullet.

Primers: low surface area, high tension.
Bullets: high surface area, low tension.
Internal pressure will act on the bullet before the primer. But, since pressure is lost when the bullet pops out, the primer doesn't go anywhere.

Bullets pop, not primers. (With very few exceptions.)
And by "bullets pop", I mean: 99% of the time, the casing will push off the bullet.

HOWEVER, as Mike Irwin pointed out-
When primers do end up being the weak link (such as with pitch-sealed bullets), they are much more dangerous than flying casings.

AND, shot shells are a totally different ball game.
Stay away!
Shotgun primers are much more powerful than standard centerfire primers. Shot shells are also very unpredictable. Sometimes the hull melts before the primer ignites... sometimes it doesn't. Either way, that primer is going to throw burning embers, shot, or other debris farther than anything else. If the primer gets launched, it will inflict serious damage. In my personal opinion, a shotgun primer detonating is the same as a full power .22 LR or .25 Auto (properly fired in a firearm's chamber)!:eek:

And where a metallic cartridge might only have to push the bullet 0.400", before all pressure is released... An uncompromised shot shell will sometimes act as a pressure vessel, allowing the powder charge to burn well enough for the wad and payload (shot or slug) to reach a good velocity, as the wad gets pushed the 2.75-3.5" out of the hull.

Stay far away from shot shells in a fire!

I have cooked off, or witnessed the cook-off of tens of thousands of rounds (personal experiences, and military duties). I've seen .22 LR, .22 WMR, .22 Hornet, .223 Rem/5.56 Nato, .30-30 Win, .308 Win/7.62 Nato, .30-06, .300 Weatherby Mag, 7.62x39mm, 7.62x54R, .32 Auto, .380 Auto, 9mm Luger, .38 Special, .40 S&W, .45 Auto, .410 shot shells, 12 ga shot shells, 10 ga shot shells, and .50 BMG.

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Okay. Sorry about that. I just wanted to clear that up.

What kind of RO hands someone a loaded gun, much less one that's malfunctioning?
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That was my main question, as well. The BIL is probably somewhat at fault, but the RO should have known better. Firearms are not toys, and this was a firearm known to be malfunctioning!
 
Does a jammed gun automatically become a risk of an AD
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I always thought so. Since I didn't know the exact cause of the jam, I was always very careful removing the mag and trying to open the slide, all while pointing it down range with enough hand pressure to contain the gun if it went off. Nervewracking when it happens once or twice a magazine. Needless to say, I don't have that gun anymore.
 
This has always concerned me with my revolvers. What if I have a misfire, go to the next chamber, and then the "dead" round goes off?

Should I try to remove the bad round from the gun?

Decisions...
 
Crazy88Fingers said:
This has always concerned me with my revolvers. What if I have a misfire, go to the next chamber, and then the "dead" round goes off?

Should I try to remove the bad round from the gun?

Decisions...
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The proper resolution to a misfire starts with keeping the gun pointed at the target for at least 30 seconds. Some guys do a lot longer. It's probably happened, but I've never heard of a delayed ignition after 30 seconds. If I had a revolver, I'd wait 30 seconds, open the gun and use something to pull the round out while keeping it pointed in a safe direction, both in front and behind as much as possible. It's pretty low on my fear list though, I've never had a misfire with a centerfire gun.
 
Talked to my coworker yesterday.

His BIL is REALLY screwed up.

The bullet apparently hit pretty high on the heel, destroyed the achillies tendon, and took the ball of the heel (bone) off.

He's already on his second surgery to stabilize the area, and is facing quite a few more to reconstruct his heel.

Apparently, though, they've gotten pretty good at reconstructing heels. Achillies tendons can come from cadavers, and apparently they can use titanium to fashion a new heel ball.



"What kind of RO hands someone a loaded gun, much less one that's malfunctioning?"

My question exactly, Tom.

That gun should NEVER have been passed back and forth. It should have gone onto a bench with the muzzle pointed down range.
 
'Range Officer'

We use that term to describe folks who we hope are knowledgeable about firearms safety.

In this case and likely at other ranges it's just some dude who apparently has had no real training.... or maybe he has and chose to ignore it.

That's why I don't frequent those cow pasture ranges anymore



Name : NRA Range Safety Officer Course
Short Description : Develops NRA Certified Range Safety Officers with the knowledge, skills, and attitude essential to organizing, conducting, and supervising safe shooting activities and range operations

More Details: This course is nine hours long and is conducted in a classroom and at a shooting facility. Range Safety Officer candidates will learn roles and responsibilities of an RSO; Range Standard Operating Procedures (SOPs); range inspection; range rules; range briefings; emergency procedures; and firearm stoppages and malfunctions. Each Range Safety Officer Candidate will receive an RSO Student Study Guide, a Basic Firearm Training Program brochure, an NRA Gun Safety Rules brochure, an Instructor Application/Course Evaluation form. (Lesson Plan 10-05, revised 01-10).
 
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I'm going to play devil's advocate on this one. While I have no reason to doubt the OP's story,does anyone think the co-worker would spin the story to obsolve his BIL of any responsibility?

I'm not going to say its impossible for a "jammed" gun to fire but in 56 years I've never seen it nor have I seen a gun fire without a finger on the trigger.
So,whose finger was on the trigger the RO's or the BIL?

As far as the comment on handing some one a loaded gun,I'm SURE none of you have handed a loaded gun to your buddies to try. I'm not condoning or condemming the RO or the BIL but there are 3 sides to the story & we only have one side.

Now the reason this story hit a nerve,is because I am an RO. Everyday I see people no different then some on this forum break POSTED range rules even before they fire a shot.When called on it ,some will thank you for the reminder and others will get an attitude because they "know it all".

If I get the attitude,you will be packing up & leaving. I don't care if your with friends or not.Stupid & irresponsible behavior have no place on the range.

I hope the BIL recovers fully from the incident and learns a lesson & the same for the RO involved.
 
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