Totally out of control. You'd think they'd have learned from the last incident. Total panic-spray.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/11/13/ny.shooting/?iref=mpstoryview
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/11/13/ny.shooting/?iref=mpstoryview
NYC cops kill teen holding hairbrush, firing 20 shots...
- Thread starter Manedwolf
- Start date
JuanCarlos
New member
Hmmm....I'd be interested to know the distribution there. I'll have to look later. I mean, four shots per officer isn't that bad, I guess. Maybe. Of course, I'd also like to know where those 20 rounds ended up.
As for actually shooting somebody "armed" with only a hairbrush, I'll have to break from character and say I'll withhold judgment until I read more details. My first instinct is the obvious "WTF," but sometimes these things do happen and the officers aren't necessarily at fault.
Though this is the NYC area...so we'll see.
I dunno, Maned. The police were called there, and were told that the kid had a gun. The kid kept advancing toward the police, even after he was ordered to stop. I presume (not enough infor in story to tell) that he was holding something that looked like a gun in his hand. I have no idea whether it was dark, or about the other circumstances.
If the police tell you to stop, you'd better stop, especially if you are holding something in your hand that looks like a gun.
There's not enough information in the story to tell whether the police went too far, or whether they had a reasonable fear that they were about to be shot.
If the police tell you to stop, you'd better stop, especially if you are holding something in your hand that looks like a gun.
There's not enough information in the story to tell whether the police went too far, or whether they had a reasonable fear that they were about to be shot.
Colin Doyle
New member
I was just watching CNN when his do-rag wearing neighbor came on TV, saying, "You just shot an un-ahmd keed, wut you gon' do nahw?!" :barf:
Unregistered
Moderator
Confusing guns and hairbrushes is an easy mistake.
I went shooting last week, and when I opened my range bag, I realized I had brought two combs, a hairbrush, a curling iron, and a can of mousse.
DWARREN123
New member
Need more info. I do wonder how many hits out of 20 shots.
doesn't have to even remotely look like a gun.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Being a cop isn't a video game, there are no "bonus lives" and no reset button and cops plan on going home at the end of their shift. Therefore they will follow the procedure that gives them the highest likelyhood of doing so.
That means a cop on the scene is paranoid and overreactive. Learn it's the truth, accept it, and learn to respond accordingly and that means you OBEY what the officer says. Arguments are for the judge later.
As for "it was only a hairbrush"...
"only a hairbrush" (scroll down)
"only a pager"
"only a cellphone"
"Only an umbrella"
"Only a soda can" (see "spiked lances" halfway down)
"It was only a belt"
"It was only a pen"
"It was only a pen II"
13 hits, 7 misses. I expect the kid was DRT at that point.
And NYC cops don't seem to understand "backstop", given that in the last shooting of 50 rounds at the unarmed guys in a car, 29 went on to hit houses and a train station beyond it.
Their job used to be to protect the population, worry about the welfare of others before their own backside. Now, they're more like soldiers, IMO. Respond to threat, eliminate threat. Not "peace officer" anymore.
If the only motivation for a cop is what course of action will get THEM home at the end of their shift, that doesn't make me want to call the cops to help.
rellascout
Moderator
This sounds like a mental health issue. There was no mention of drugs so my gut instincts tell me that this person was not mentally stable.
JuanCarlos
New member
While Unregistered made a good joke out of this, I suppose, generally just about anything can look like a gun to somebody who is making a snap decision and inclined to believe somebody is armed (for whatever reason). That's why generally if the police are speaking to you in an agitated manner, it's best to drop anything you have in your hands (iPods can be replaced) and show them open palms.
Hey, at least it's an improvement...less shots and a higher ratio.
Unsurprising, considering the increasing militarization of police in many areas. What do you expect when you start handing out military hardware to police and declaring "wars" on crime?
Double Naught Spy
New member
Okay, you don't know if they sprayed or not. You are making an assumption. The same goes for saying they were totally out of control.
I am sure we have all seen the video of the guy shot by cops and all the guy had was a cell phone that he used to point at the police like a gun and they shot and killed him.
I do like how you cited the CNN information, gave part of the story, and then conveniently left out some critical aspects and passed judgment on how the police are out of control and panic sprayed.
From the CNN link you provided...
Khiel Coppin claimed to have a gun and when asked for information from his mom, she seemed to verify what the son said.
Of course, a friend of his claim he dropped the brush. The police claim that he advanced on them.
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I do find the contrast between threads to be interesting. In the Orlando thread, http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267574&highlight=keltec Antipas stated,
talking about two CCW guys who opened up on two robbers.
I've known a lot of cops and I'm pretty sure I can say that the vast majority would leave the "selfless sacrifice" to the martyrs and saints. They are people doing a job, not expendable playing pieces.
Man some people have some weird ideas about what cops are and how they should act.
CrazyIvan007
New member
The boy was heard on the phone saying he had a gun, the mother confirmed it. He yelled at the police and mother through the window proclaiming he had a gun. For all intensive purposes, he had a gun.
However, the report is conflicting. It says the boy climed out of the window and approached the officers with the black hairbrush hidden under his shirt. But, a witness says the boy climbed out of the window, dropped the brush and put his hands up, then approached the police.
I find the witness's account inacurate. If someone gives up to that point, there is no logical reason they would approach the police. If the police tell you to drop it, put your hands up, they don't say: "And come this way." The assailent is told to lie face down on the ground. If he was giving up, why would he follow all but one of thier directions? I can, however, see him lifting his shirt, exposing the hairbrush partially (which could be mistaken for a weapon) and then approaching the police.
However, the report is conflicting. It says the boy climed out of the window and approached the officers with the black hairbrush hidden under his shirt. But, a witness says the boy climbed out of the window, dropped the brush and put his hands up, then approached the police.
I find the witness's account inacurate. If someone gives up to that point, there is no logical reason they would approach the police. If the police tell you to drop it, put your hands up, they don't say: "And come this way." The assailent is told to lie face down on the ground. If he was giving up, why would he follow all but one of thier directions? I can, however, see him lifting his shirt, exposing the hairbrush partially (which could be mistaken for a weapon) and then approaching the police.
JuanCarlos
New member
Bleh. If you just want a "job," there are dozens of other fields to go into.
People don't always think calmly and rationally in such situations. Do we know yet if drugs/alcohol were involved? Because that just makes it less likely.
CrazyIvan007
New member
Police don't know and are not expected to know if drugs, alcohol, mental illness, irrational thought, etc...are involved when it comes to their safety. They are to treat everyone equally, without prejudice and consider every encounter to be with a person who is fully cognicent, functional and ratioinal (in regards to mental illness). Standing & trying to figure out an assailent in such a situation can, has and will end in officers getting killed.
If the woman was unable to control this child to the point of this escelation, she should have had him committed. Police are not social workers. They are not psychologists. They do not enforce a family court proceeding. They are there to protect the public from harm and enforce laws. Every encounter is a mystery until it is researched. When someone is coming at you like this, there is hardly time for research. The woman should be charged with child endangerment for not having this child committed.
If the woman was unable to control this child to the point of this escelation, she should have had him committed. Police are not social workers. They are not psychologists. They do not enforce a family court proceeding. They are there to protect the public from harm and enforce laws. Every encounter is a mystery until it is researched. When someone is coming at you like this, there is hardly time for research. The woman should be charged with child endangerment for not having this child committed.
I am sure the cops are taught the same things I was:
1 Whatever reason it is they called 911 for, it isn't MY emergency- it is theirs.
2 We don't use emergency vehicles to bring more victims to the scene
3 I can't save anyone if I am dead
4 We all go home at the end of the shift
Just because I work in public safety does not mean I have a death wish, or a hero complex. I just want to do my job and go home.
1 Whatever reason it is they called 911 for, it isn't MY emergency- it is theirs.
2 We don't use emergency vehicles to bring more victims to the scene
3 I can't save anyone if I am dead
4 We all go home at the end of the shift
Just because I work in public safety does not mean I have a death wish, or a hero complex. I just want to do my job and go home.
Time for a SERIOUS Reality Check.
If you only put people on the force who took it as "more than a job" and who were willing, and even eager, to make a "selfless sacrifice" you'd....
A) have a pretty damn small force,
B) comprised mostly of zelots,
C) that decreased in size pretty fast due to attrition,
D) and was pretty poorly trained due to the turnover/mortality rate.
Like I said, some of you folks have some really weird ideas about public service jobs and the people who do them.
(edit: and a HUGE +1 to what Divemedic said)