NYC and police harassment

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Bubsy

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I'm a licensed handgun owner who has a NYC Residence Permit with 5 registered handguns. I work as a social worker in a "tough hood" in NYC, and most of the teens I work with are gang members who are referred from the criminal justice system.

Early this month, I stopped at a Chinese takeout to get lunch and spoke with a coupe of my clients who happen to be members of a local bloods gang. A few minutes later, the captain of the precinct precinct pulled me over along with detectives. They did (what my lawyer said is an illegal search) of me and my vehicle. They kept asking me if I had any guns in the car, and I told them that I didn't. ( I only carry my gun to and from the pistol range every Sunday) I had an NRA sticker on the rear window of my SUV. When they searched me, they found a folding knife on me which they declared "illegal" (they said any knife is an illegal weapon) and they gave me a summons for illegal possession of a knife. It was a gift from the father of a former client of mine who happened to be a police officer in Nassau County Long Island.

Trouble is, by having received a "summons" I had to contact the Police Licensing bureau who told me to turn in ALL my guns to my local police precinct as well as my license which was "suspended pending investigation". So know I'm w/o any of my guns all because of my carrying a folding knife.

In the meantime, the gang members in the community that I work in are able to get guns and knives whenever they want to.

Something seems seriously wrong with NYC's laws.

bubsy
 
was there ever any doubt ? New York, Chicago , Wash DC, and California.

In my part of the country they would never have stopped you, and even if you had a legal gun and knife on you, I'm not sure they would ever care as long as you didn't pull either one out on them. You never would have gotten a summons, had to register any of your guns, etc.

You are in the "liberal zone".
 
As someone who works with gang members, do you think that liberal gun control laws have any effect on the bad guys? Are your NYC BGs any more confident or aggressive than one in Denver would be, just because they know their victims probably aren't armed?
 
Did the police officers see you talking to two known (presumption) gang members? Were you much better dressed or older than your clients? I don't know if it was a legal search or if the "folding knife" would be legal, but i could understand some curiosity on the part of the officers. I'm not sure that curiosity is enough to justify the search. Did you happen to mention your job & why you would have been with the two gang members?

I hope you get everything worked out & get your firearms back. If i was in your position, i'd go the extra 2 miles to be and appear squeaky clean to anyone who might be watching to prevent any confusion.

BTW, i would agree that NYC has some dumb gun laws, from what i've heard about them.
 
To Orangello..

Yes, the detectives saw me speaking with the gang members. From what I've been told, it's best to say as little as possible when the police stop you in the hood I work in, so I did just that. It wasn't until after they searched me and the vehicle that they bothered to ask me what type of work I did. Then I gave them my work ID and explained what I did and why I had been speaking with the two gang members. Incidentally, I also gave them my DEA card, "Detectives Endowment Association" that was given to me by my neighbor who is a retired NYPD Detective. Anyone who has that card should be given courteous treatment but they didn't care.

It turns out that my folding knife isn't legal in NYC because it "locks" in the open position. It IS legal in Nassau country Long Island, however.

Yes, the police officers did see me talking to the gang members. No, I wasn't better dressed than the gang members (I wear jeans, Nikes' and a "hoodie") to fit in. Am I older? I'm 50 and Caucasian. At the request of my attorney, I have gotten signed statements from the gang members indicating that they are my patients at the clinic.


to Caboclo..

In my opinion, Gun control is a joke when it comes to keeping illegal guns off the streets. Gun control only prevents law abiding citizens from legally bearing arms. Gun control laws are like Prohibition laws. The laws were in place, but organized crime found a way to supply the alcohol. The same is true of guns. The more gun control we have, the fewer guns are going to be in the hands of honest law abiding citizens and the more guns are going to be in the hands of criminals. My current situation is proof.

bubsy
 
Now i have not been in nyc for awhile but i know it used to be that as lng as your knife blade was under 4 inches it was legal. A locking blade had nothing to do with it. Is this a new law?
 
BTW, the detectives "offfically" stopped me for having a pair of "fuzzy dice" hanging from the rearview mirror which they said "obstructed my view".

When they took my license, registration, and insurance card, they found out that my record was completely clean and my lawyer tells me at that point, they had no right to search me or my vehicle.

bubsy
 
to Ruthlist4Christ...

The police officer who gave me the knife was under the same impression you were (actually, he told me that as long as the blade was shorter than the width of my hand, it was legal). but, it turns out that any knife that locks the blade in the open position is illegal.

bubsy
 
Bubsy, the laws about which weapons are legal and which are not have changed considerably in many places in the past ten or twenty years. New York is one of those places. I think the friend that gave you that knife was probably right when he learned the laws about knives.

I am *so* glad I don't live in New York City, for this reason among many others. <wry grin>
 
FYI, my attorney tells me that on 2/1 he is going to try to get an ACD (adjudication contemplating dismissal) which takes 6 months. On 8/2/10, the case will be dismissed and I can beg the pistol permit division to reinstate my license and give me my 5 guns back.

If, however, the DA refuses to go with the ACD, he'll request a hearing stating that the search was illegal. Trouble is, in NYC, a hearing takes 8 months which would take longer than the 6 month ACD. (and would cost me an addition $350 an hour in legal fees). I'm hoping that the police just wont show up on 2/1 and they'll dismiss the case then and there...

Thinking about this, it is getting me more and more angry. All I had is a folding knife, that I used to open letters and cut tape on packages I received, etc. and possession of that knife got my pistol license suspended and required me to turn in my 5 guns! In the meantime, the criminals are walking out there with loaded 9mms!

Something just isn't right with NYC laws.

bubsy
 
to Caboclo..

Actually, the gang members in the hood I work in are mostly blood so they are YG's (young gangstas) not BG's. BG's are "baby gangstas" and are Crip. But I do know a few of them.

bubsy
 
Democracy at work

All I had is a folding knife, that I used to open letters and cut tape on packages I received, etc. and possession of that knife got my pistol license suspended and required me to turn in my 5 guns! In the meantime, the criminals are walking out there with loaded 9mms!
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And just why do you think there are such laws in NYC? Because the people who live(d) there voted in the people who put the laws in place.

Democracy at work, or so it would seem.

It seems the voice of the many often trumps the intelligence of the few.
 
If what you said is true, and there is nothing more to the story, then immediately get a lawyer and file a lawsuit. Your rights were blatantly violated.
Don't let it slide and take it. Fight it.
 
Seems to me the only rights you have lost is the ability to

'use' your guns on the weekend... in reality you haven't lost that much because you didn't have much in the first place. Sorry, but I don't see the big deal, you knew, or should have known what kind of system you were living in... now you know. The good thing about America is you have the choice
 
I cant resist this one...

I'm a tad suspect of this story. I do agree that the NYPD does engage in profiling. It sounds to me like you were questioned because you looked out of place. That happens all the time. In 25 years I cant think of any time a police captain would be out on patrol (other than as a duty captain). I also cant see any police captain getting involved with a street stop, Captains are mid-level management. And as far as detectives stopping you? Most have a heavy case load, and are too busy to do street stops. Thats stuff is done by the patrol bureau, and anti-crime types.

As far as your residential permit?... It's called a "PREMIS PERMIT" it allows you to have a loaded firearm in your home, or business. You can transport it to and from an authorized tange, or hunting trip within the limits of the city as long as it's unloaded, and in a locked box. There is no residential permit.

As far as being arrested for an illegal knife? I know ... you got a summons. well weapons charges are criminal, and requires an arrest. You may have gotten a DAT (desk appearence ticket) released to appear at a later date in criminal court. You would have had your fingerprints taken, and been photographed. Or. You may have violated a city ordinance. (Knife with a blade over 4 inches). In that case you would have been issued a UAT
(universal appearence ticket) returnble to the summons part of criminal court.

If you was fingerprinted, yes you would have been required to notify the pistol permit section, and they probably would suspend your permit. But in the case of a UAT I doubt the pistol permit section would have asked that you turn in your firearms. A UAT is pretty much a traffic ticket like a summons for allowing your insurance expire, or driving with a suspended license.
 
Ya think? San Francisco, Chicago, DC & New York are some of the worst cities for gun owners. Only thing you can do is vote them out or move. I took the 2nd path...

BTW, get a good lawyer.

Bubsy
<SNIP>
Something seems seriously wrong with NYC's laws.
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The whole "Don't say anything to the Police" really worked out for you here. Maybe next time tell them you have a legit reason to be interacting with known gang members. I see a white guy talking with known gang members and I would think he's buying dope. Common sense applies here. "Actually Detective I am a licensed social worker and those are clients, heres my ID." would have done a whole lot towards making the situation go away.

If the knife was illegal then that's on you, know your laws, especially in a place like NYC where they have some of the strictest laws on the planet.

I am from the Bronx and my Dad was NYPD for 31 years, Captains are not out working the street for no reason, maybe your gang member clients are in the middle of something big, thats the only thing I can think of that would drag a Captain out on the street.

If the search was indeed illegal, then thats wrong and it should be addressed. But if during the interaction there was enough PC established, then the search would have been legal. Would have to know what was said and by whom.

Fuzzy dice hanging from a mirror are illegal in CT, 14-99 Objects Obstructing View, I would imagine NY has something similar.
 
Found these applicable law listings for New York, these are not directly from a state or city web site so may be out of date.

State:
New York - Penal Law Section 265.01. A person is guilty of
criminal possession of a weapon in the fourth degree when:
(1) He possesses any firearm, electronic dart gun, electronic stun
gun, gravity knife, switchblade knife, pilum ballistic knife, metal
knuckle knife, cane sword, billy, blackjack, bludgeon, metal knuckles,
chuka stick, sand bag, sandclub, wrist-brace type slingshot or
slungshot, shirken or "Kung Fu star"; or
(2) He possesses any dagger, dangerous knife, dirk, razor, stiletto,
imitation pistol, or any other dangerous or deadly instrument or weapon
with intent to use the same unlawfully against another; or
(5) He possesses any dangerous or deadly weapon and is not a
citizen of the United States...
Criminal possession of a weapon in the fourth degree is a class A
misdemeanor.
.....
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City:
Chap. 1 Public Safety 10-133
Historical Note: Formerly 436-5.1

10-133 Possession of knives or instruments.

A. Legislative findings. It is hereby declared and found that possession in public places, streets and parks of the city, of large knives is a menace to the public health, peace, safety and welfare of the people of the city; that the possession in public places, streets and parks of such knives has resulted in the commission of many homicides, robberies, maimings and assaults of and upon the people of the city; that this condition encourages and fosters the commission of crimes and contributes to juvenile delinquency, youth crime and gangsterism; that unless the possession or carrying in public places, streets and parks of the city of such knives without a lawful purpose is prohibited, there is danger of an increase in crimes of violence and other conditions detrimental to public peace, safety and welfare. It is further declared and found that the wearing or carrying of knives in open view in public places while such knives are not being used for a lawful purpose is unnecessary and threatening to the public and should be prohibited.

B. It shall be unlawful for any person to carry on his or her person or have in such person's possession, in any public place, street or park any knife which has a blade length of four inches or more.

C. It shall be unlawful for any person in a public place, street or park to wear outside of his or her clothing or carry in open view any knife with an exposed or unexposed blade unless such person is actually using suck knife for a lawful purpose as set forth in subdivision d of this section.

D. The provisions of subdivisions b and c of this sections shall not apply to (1) persons in the military service on the state of New York when duly authorized to carry or display knives pursuant to regulations issued by the chief of stall to the governor; (2) police officers and peace officers as defined in the criminal procedure law; (3) participants in special events when authorized by the police commissioner (4) persons on the military or other service of the United States, in pursuit of official duty authorized by federal law; or (5) any person displaying or in possession of a knife otherwise in violation of this section when such a knife (a) is being used for or transported immediately to or from a place where it is used for hunting, fishing, camping, hiking, picnicking or any employment, trade or occupation customarily requiring the use of such knife; or (b) is displayed or carried by a member of a theatrical group, drill team, military or para military unit or veterans organization, to from or during a meeting, parade or other performance or practice for such event, which customarily requires the carrying of suck knife or (c) is being transported directly to or from a place of purchase in such a manner as not to allow easy access to such knife while it is transported; or (d) is displayed or carried by a duly enrolled member of the Boy or Girl scouts of America or similar organization or society and such display or possession is necessary to participate in the activities of such organization or society.......
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I looks like a blade under 4-inches should be OK, but the State Law is vague and defines the prohibited objects as any dangerous item. So it would depend on trial law to see what or what not has been found dangerous in previous cases. It also says there must be intent to use. Bubsy did not state what length blade he had (and probably should not on this site). Locking or non locking does not seem relevant in the City though. Interesting enough a Boy Scout or Girl Scout could legally carry such a knife while a normal adult cannot.

In VA there is no formal length statement other than in the school bans which list the blade length as 3 inches. Whether a knife is considered a concealed weapon is entirely dependent on what the judge and jury think. But the standard is fairly high and the knife would have to be considered a fighting knife, having features like locking blades, hilts, etc.

Based on who stopped Bubsy, it would appear he may have stumbled into some sort of stake-out or such activity and they thought he may have been involve in illegal gun or drug trafficking.
 
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