NRA members son arrested for something he wrote

Cactus,
Living here in Denver, not five miles from Littleton gives one a unique perspective. Let me tell you a few things about those two 'young boys'. They had threatened all sorts of kids several times. One of them had been arrested and sent through teen counciling for his actions. And several parents of teens threatened by the pair BEGGED PD and SO to 'look into' those two boys, as they were trouble waiting to happen. Unfortunately, these two agencies did nothing with the pair. Probably understaffed and overworked, as most LEO agencies are these days.

So there were all sorts of warning signs with these two. Please don't compare this incident to these two 'whacked out' kids. Which is what Kliebold and Harris were. Completely out of their minds, wanting to kill themselves and take as many people with them. We should all consider ourselves lucky that the numerous homemade bombs they set around the school malfunctioned, or lots more kids would have been hurt. Not the same thing as the stories listed above.

And be realistic. Big difference between an agency official knocking on your door at 6 pm and interupting dinner, wanting to discuss some concerns voiced to them by the authorities of your sons school. Compared to ten police officers serving a 'search warrant' at 0130 am. You know it, I know it and the police on the raid know the difference between reacting and overreacting. And these people overreacted. Political Correctness at it's worst.
 
I for one have a real Real REAL problem with the 0130 raid . If the judge signed the order I would wonder about the time of day it was . I don't see it signed at 0100 and the raid going down right after that .
Also if a "search warrant" was issued , what did they find that demanded that they remove him from his home ? I always thought that this required an "arrest warrant" unless compelling evidence was found linking the child to criminal acts . If the parents fail to sue everyone in the entire system they are doing the entire country a diservice . Money should change hands , people should be fired and apologies should be numerous and quickly offered . Especially from the guy that USED to be a judge!!!!
 
There is no excuse for the actions of the court, police or school in this situation or the one Artimus is experiencing!
Hopefully, someone will legally contest these types of actions so that we can get a clear First amendment ruling on the thought police.

Granted, from these articles I can't tell what happened before the early morning raid, but it seems to me that some basic truths about student writing were ignored:

1. Kids write about what they see. In our current culture video, game, music and written violence is pervasive. Writers like King are held up as celebs.

2. Many students seem better able to write when they themselves and their classmates are the basic characters (often with added personality characteristics). It is easier for them than making up characters from the whole cloth and trying to keep them straight.

3.If a kid writes well, other kids will ask to read copies of his stories.

A talk with the counselor might have been appropriate, but the rest sounds like overkill!

As a 30 -year public school teacher (English/ U.S.History) in an urban district, I am certainly sensitive to the risk of violence in the school directed at staff and students.
However, the current hysteria is a GREAT threat to our basic freedoms! It has intensified the pressure on staff and students to conform to increasingly stringent policies on political correctness in hopes achieving greater security. I see many kids buying into the "rightness" of limiting freedoms for collective security.
 
STOP.....think

I think most of you are being overreactive here. The "son of an NRA instructor" is the hot button setting everyone off, but let's think about this one...

- does this sound any different than the events leading up to Columbine ?
- the kid has written a **** 40 PAGE **** document where specific people are threatened with violence
- he has access, and presumably proficiency with deadly weapons

We all got mad when they blamed the guns for Columbine, here they are trying to do some early intervention and prevent a tragedy before any guns are involved, and you guys are again upset. Do you remember how everyone crucified the Columbine parents & cops for not "reading the warning signs" ?

If it was my kid, I'd be more concerned for his mental & emotional health than what time of night the cops came, for crying out loud !

Here's something to think about - what if YOU were the teacher he threatened in this 'manifesto' ? What if it was YOUR KID he described how he was going to kill ??? I suspect you'd be singing a different tune - some would volunteer to do the no-knock raid yourselves !

By allowing these writings out in public (no longer private musings), he has forfeited his right to privacy in these matters.
 
Just a sidebar note...

With regards to free speech in a public school, there is no such thing. School newspapers do not enjoy the same level of Constitutional protection as does the media. The Court reasoned that a school paper serves a pendantic purpose and can be subject to control by school officials. Applied to the kid in our topic, his writings are not protected and it can be shared with officials.
 
I think most of you are being overreactive here. The "son of an NRA instructor" is the hot button setting everyone off, but let's think about this one...<<<<<<

Doesn't matter if the kid was the son of Sarah Brady, a 0130 entry by 12+officers for this is total BS.

>>>- does this sound any different than the events leading up to Columbine ?<<<<<<

According to the guy above, YES.

- the kid has written a **** 40 PAGE **** document where specific people are threatened with violence.<<<<<<

BFD, I used to write long(100page plus) fictional papers to kill time when I was deployed overseas(no guns in Japan, but they did eventually open a skeet range) and I used to create characters using real people because that was simple and they were already developed.

>>> he has access, and presumably proficiency with deadly weapons<<<<

Compared to this kid, I'm the black angel of death, and I've never been subject to a no-knock at 0130. Of course, I'm in a job where ruthless skill with lethal violence is encouraged(at least in the infantry)and I was this way prior to enlisting.

>>>>Do you remember how everyone crucified the Columbine parents & cops for not "reading the warning signs" ? <<<

yeah, but according the previous post Klebold and Harris were far more FUBAr than this kid.

>>>If it was my kid, I'd be more concerned for his mental & emotional health than what time of night the cops came, for crying out loud! <<<<

I really doubt you'll think this when the police roust you out of bed at 0130, probably at gun point, and treat you like a piece of meat.

>>>>Here's something to think about - what if YOU were the teacher he threatened in this 'manifesto' ? What if it was YOUR KID he described how he was going to kill ??? I suspect you'd be singing a different tune - some would volunteer to do the no-knock raid yourselves!<<<<<

Nope, I'd go have a long talk with this kids parents(and probably the kid himself) before I fly off tha handle like the judge and the police(and a whole bunch of other beaurocrats)did. That's the way it's done by normal humans in the real world. Not run off to play John Rambo. It's all well and good when you raid some basically helpless family in the middle of the night. They would not stand a chance vs trained and ready opponents. I guess this offends my sense of fair play.

>>>By allowing these writings out in public (no longer private musings), he has forfeited his right to privacy in these matters.<<<<

True, a serious case of dumb in this wonderful world of thought control and political correctness. Who is he to think he lives in a free country? Doesn't he realize he lives in NJ? At least the Nazis and Stalinists only arrested you when you threatened the government and the Fuhrer. Semper Fidelis...Ken
 
My take on all this:

Did the student have the right to write the document? YES. Does he have the right to NAME specific people in his immediate environment, and threaten them with death? NO. (If you wanna do that, CHANGE THE FRICKIN' NAMES!)

WHY was the kid giving out copies of his manuscript to his PEERS? (Hint: to gain their approval and appreciation.) Was it WRONG to disseminate copies of explicit violence against peers/teachers to other students? YES (IMHO). Would it have been wrong to turn the paper in to a creative writing teacher? NO.

If you want to do creative writing with death and violence in it, current laws in this country FORBID making "explicit threats" against a "real person". Just like you can't yell "fire" in a crowded theater, even though it's a technical violation of your 1st Amend. rights. (Notice that the names of gov't elected officials are always changed in a mainstream fiction author's writing.)

There ARE limits. The kid crossed the ("post-Columbine") line. He got/will get checked out. He "vented his emotions" by writing violent stories. We live in a cuture surrounded by violence. The kids are awash in it, and many glorify in it. Personally, I too see a trobled child. Not one who needs to be persecuted, but one who needs to be TALKED TO. (Just not over Christmas.)

YMMV...
 
Art,

I too have some concerns regarding the 1:30 AM raid by the police. On the face of it, this seems to be out of place. However, we do not have access to all of the facts that the police and courts were acting upon. The Newsday article stated that in his "manifesto", this kid expressed a desire to "die in a shoot out with the police". This would give the police the obligation to minimize any potential problems in arresting this kid. I do think that the fact the father of this kid was an NRA instructor was included in the medias report as an attempt to inflame public opinion about the NRA in general. This information would be of value to the police however, in indicating that the kid MAY have access to weapons and the knowledge of how to use them. This could have influenced the police's decision as to the immediacy of the situation.

Wallew,

We now have the benefit of after the fact information regarding Harris and Kliebold. The entire Columbine story has been gone over with a fine tooth comb. I'm sure that prior to their act, Harris' and Kliebold's parents would have been saying the same about their kids as the parents of this boy are. No one wants to believe that their child is capable of such evil. The Daily Record article stated that this kid has had troubles at school and the school sought a psychological evaluation after one recent poem. This does not sound like the "manifesto" is an isolated incident to me.

I hesitate to make a general condemnation of the partys involved based solely on the limited information given in a couple of news accounts. If the police and the courts are shown to have acted unreasonably in the end, then they should pay the consequences.

We should take into consideration, however, that the police and courts may have saved several lives, including this kids. This is something we may never know for sure.

[Edited by Cactus on 12-25-2000 at 02:14 PM]
 
RH,
I think you need to reread my first post. This kid had ZERO in common with K & H. Both K & H had many run-ins with either PD or SO. Even to the point of being put into 'rehab for teens'. A program for screwed up kids. The PD & SO both had numerous complaints from parents prior to them going 'whacko' at Columbine.

This was the childs 'first' run in with LEO's. I am confident that if this child had been in trouble earlier with LE, one or both reporters would have mentioned it, as it spices up a story.

I do believe that the child might need some form of either 'counseling or guidance'(most teens do) but it could just as easily come from a pastor or principal as it could have come from Child Services and the police. I'm not saying that this child is innocent or a saint. I'm saying all this problem is simply over reacting, and make no mistake - that's what this is, over reacting to a minimal problem.

When have reasoning adults taken to 'attacking' innocent families in the middle of the night, all in the name of safety? You insinuated that if you had been named you would have wanted to have been in on the raid? Do you really mean that? A childs written words require your prescence in this family matter? Why? Your concern for the childs welfare perhaps, but personal intervention?

Cactus,
See above. K & H were messed up with parents that were unaware of what was going on around them, especially given the fact that their children had many run ins with LE.

The way I read this was the parents were aware of their childs problems and felt that writing was an outlet. The County Prosecutor didn't feel that child was going to use firearms 'found' in the home.

Have you taken any NRA classes? They stress safety, safety, safety. This kid has been under the parental influence of an NRA firearms instructor his whole life. As an NRA firearms instructor he would stress safety any time a firearm was discussed, handled or fired.

Again, this whole situation is being blown out of proportion by a few people (a few cops and one judge) over reacting to a childs written words. Are there underage villians out there that would cut your heart out at a moments notice, just for your shoes? Absolutely. Was this kid one of them? You make the call, you already know how I feel about this whole situation.
 
I'd have to see the actual "manifesto" (I love the use of that word as opposed to "story" or "writings") If the kid wrote what was a fictional account of himself taking out kids and teachers, I'd say he might have needed some counseling. If his writings reflected first person Columbine style "I can't wait `till I can take all of you muthaf***ers out" threats, more drastic intervention may have been needed, such as an emergency evaluation. Under NO circumstances was a gestapo style 0130 raid in order.

The fact that the authorities denied this kid Christmas with his family is sickening. Even if they were totally convinced that this kid was going to walk into the school and start picking off students and staff, there is no school during the Christmas season. They should have at least let the kid have bail and if they were REALLY concerned, put him under house arrest. Any and all evaluations could have been completed before school started back up after the holidays.

Being in a similar (thank God I don't live in PRNJ) situation myself, I'm here to tell you that it's REALLY hard to smooth an incident like this over with your child. It would be even harder to do looking at your kid through iron bars at Christmas time. "But son, this is for your own good........"

Dennis,
you stated that this kid crossed the "post Columbine line" What is this line and how is it defined? Does this mythical line only apply to students? If so, why?

Artimus

*we now return you to your regurlarly scheduled deprogramming*
 
Reactionaries

Echo5Mike, thanks for not making it personal. :rolleyes:

Wallew, I did not insinuate that I would want to be in on the raid. What I meant is that a lot of folks here will grouse about a story like this and not step back and think what they would have done in a similiar situation. It doesn't sound like this kid was far off from Harris & Klybold. When DO we say he's dangerous ? After one suspension ? One time bringing a gun to school ? Sometimes the first time is all it takes - ask the kids in Padukah Kentucky. All I'm saying is if you had gotten ahold of this "manifesto" and seen the names of your family as targets, you would consider this kid a clear & present danger and demand that action be taken, and the admonition that "he's not like Dylan & Klybold" would not wash with you - agreed ?

For all of you who would like to test this concept - go ahead and write a threatening article naming a national political figure, and see if the secret service calls and makes an appointment with your secretary to "counsel" you, or takes a more aggressive approach.
 
Not having read it, but if the kid named targets and shared it with others, screw him. One thing is that you have to be adult enough to know not to do this stuff.

I still think the nighttime raid was excessive but I certainly would have gotten a warrant and searched the house.
I probably would have grabbed the kid off the street.

Sometimes, RKBA fervor makes folks forget that there are folks who are bad.

So here is an easy rule to tell your kids.

DON'T THREATEN TO KILL REAL PEOPLE

If you do, you will meet the police.
 
Echo5Mike, thanks for not making it personal.<<<<<

Sorry, but back in the bad old days used to do raids and stuff like this. On non-Americans outside the CONUS. The thought of doing that to some kid at 0130 bothers me. It ain't a pleasant thing. Call it guilt, call it whatever you like, it's still there. Perhaps I overreacted, sorry to offend you.

>>>Wallew, I did not insinuate that I would want to be in on the raid. What I meant is that a lot of folks here will grouse about a story like this and not step back and think what they would have done in a similiar situation.<<<<

Told you what I would do. It would not involve a 0130 wake-up call. Intervention seems to be needed, but since you have a 2 week break for Christmas, guess that leaves all kinds of time. But wait, we need to do a 0130 entry so they are all confused and don't press for their rights. Oh and it's good practice for when we do "drug houses"

>>> It doesn't sound like this kid was far off from Harris & Klybold. When DO we say he's dangerous ? After one suspension ? One time bringing a gun to school ? Sometimes the first time is all it takes - ask the kids in Padukah Kentucky.<<<<<<

Sometimes there's nothing you can do. That's life. According to this, we should ban guns, ban cars, ban fertilizer, and lock everyone who is not'normal' up. We live in a (supposedly) free society. There are nutcases out there. Sometimes that's just the price for freedom. I'm not saying do nothing, but we have to have a 'reasonable' action, and unfortunately, reason has flown out the window in the last 40-50 years(mainly the last 20)


>>> All I'm saying is if you had gotten ahold of this "manifesto" and seen the names of your family as targets, you would consider this kid a clear & present danger and demand that action be taken, and the admonition that "he's not like Dylan & Klybold" would not wash with you - agreed ?<<<<<

No, instead of depending on someone else(with no real interest) to look after my family, I'd go and talk to the parents and the kid and make my own decision. If I don't get a warm and fuzzy feeling after that, then I can talk to the police. This is like taking someone's car away because they might commit a DUI. Another thing to point out is that this is all 'facts' reported by the media, who has a vested interest in demonizing gun owners, both because it makes for mor salls and it pushes their agenda of gun control.

>>>For all of you who would like to test this concept - go ahead and write a threatening article naming a national political figure, and see if the secret service calls and makes an appointment with your secretary to "counsel" you, or takes a more aggressive approach.<<<

Remember that late night guy who did the thing about "snipers wanted" overlaid on a Bush campaign poster? He just got a phone call and a visit to investigate IIRC. The SS will investigate all known threats, and they make assessments based on the seriousness of the situation. There is not always an arrest, and there damn sure isn't always some 0130 entry into a house in order to sieze a kid. Which brings the question. Has the family sued the police dept, school, and judge yet? Semper Fidelis...Ken
 
RH,

First you say,"What if it was YOUR KID he described how he was going to kill ??? I suspect you'd be singing a different tune - some would volunteer to do the no-knock raid yourselves!"

Then you say, "I did not insinuate that I would want to be in on the raid. What I meant is that a lot of folks here will grouse about a story like this and not step back and think what they would have done in a similiar situation."

Yeah, by saying that "some people", you meant yourself and others. You can't put your feelings of this matter onto other people without first having those feelings yourself. Otherwise, you have no basis in fact. Or were you just writing fiction, like this kid??

IF I were in a similar situation, I would be ENRAGED that a police department OVER REACTED to a non problem. Just like the thread that Walangkatapat listed where the school system over reacted. And let me make it perfectly clear. I don't care that this kids father was NRA instructor. That's the hook used by the liberal reporter, not me.

The real danger here is the incrementalism that has even PRO-RKBA discussing this like it's a real story with a real threat involved. There is no threat. There never was. What we do have here is the over reaction on the part of a few adults that want to 'make an example' of this kid for his creative writing skills.

Did this kid make a video stating that he was going to 'kill everyone he could'? NO HE DID NOT!

Has this kid had any run in's with the police? NO HE HAS NOT!

Has this kid been to counseling in the school regarding his problems? YES HE HAS!

So, tell me how this is justified, especially the 0130 raid on an unsuspecting household? YOU CAN'T AND YOU KNOW IT!

Wouldn't a phone call and visit during daylight hours by the principal have been more approriate? YES IT WOULD HAVE BEEN AND YOU KNOW IT!

You have condemned this kid before you EVEN KNOW the facts, kind of like the police did with their 0130 raid with a SEARCH WARRANT? I would have loved to know what they were looking for and if they found it. In this country, you are INNOCENT until proven guilty. You (and the judge involved in this case) have this kid locked up BEFORE any wrong doing has been proven! And for what? For a phsyciatric evaluation? What will that do to 17 year old's esteem and viewpoint of the legal system? Especially when he is found to be as normal as any other 17 year old kid is??? I've been through a phsych eval for a contract job as armorer for the special forces. It was 990 questions and an hour and a half with a physciatrist that was a COMPLETE waste of time. I got the offer and turned it down. You have never been insulted so much, until you take one of these 'tests'! What a bunch of liberal BS. And no, I don't want to sleep with my mother. This question was asked seven times in 990 questions. Some of the others were even worse. And they were repeated over and over again. What, you are supposed to repeat your core beliefs six times one way and then forget your core beliefs and 'slip up' and answer the last one a different way? Only if you are as stupid as the people who wrote and grade this test.

And if this kid had just graphically written that he wanted to 'have intercourse' with all these people (especially the male students and teachers) instead of shooting them, the school administration would have given this kid an award for creative writing!! That's how twisted and sick the public school system has become. And you know it.
 
Wallew,

You're statement that Harris and Kliebold's families were unaware of what was going on with their kids does not support the facts that have been reported. Anytime a juvenile is contacted by police for a serious matter, the parents are notified. One of the kids, I believe it was Harris, was under medication perscribed by a doctor for emotional problems. If the parents sought treatment for his problems, it is unrealistic to say that they were ignoring those very same problems! All reports I have read indicated that both Harris' and Kliebold's parents were involved with their kids lives and were good parents. Did they take adequate measures? Hindsight obviously tells us otherwise, but find me just one parent who believes their child will commit mass murder! I'll wager that the vast majority of death row inmates parents still swear that their child is innocent.

You state that the New Jersey kids parents were good and involved parents. It seems to me that the mother is in a state of denial. Any mother who would "review" her childs writings labled "the thoughts and feelings of an insane person" and not become seriously concerned for this child is not looking at these writings dispassionately. To say that these violent, anti-social rantings are just "his outlet" is the same denial expressed by Harris' and Kliebold's teachers regarding the now infamous film that they made.

I'm not sure that the fact that the New Jersey boy was taught firearms safety is relevant to anything. To be taught to treat every gun as if were loaded and to never point a gun at anything you do not intend to shoot would have as little effect on a person intending to commit mayhem, as have the laws against bringing guns to school have had in preventing school shootings. I seem to recall that either Harris' or Kliebold's parents were supporters of HCI. Their belief that guns should be banned seemed to have no effect on their child, what makes you think that the father of the New Jersey kids belief in safe gun handling would have sunk in with this kid any better?

You and I agree on there being evil persons out there who would kill us in a heart beat. Yet you seem to have been able to look into this far away kids heart and mind, based on skimpy news reports, and determine that he is not one of them. This is not a talent that I share. As I stated previously, I am reluctant to second guess people who have a much more intimate knowledge of the situation than I do!
 
Wallew, you need to chill a bit. I think it is clear that this kid deserved a look but the raid was excessive.

Killing fantasies are quite a bit different from sexual
fantasies. Run into a school with your organ in your
hand vs. a pump shotgun and you will see the difference.
 
This whole thing is just bad. Not bad, because the kid did anything wrong, but bad in the reaction of the authorities. They treated this kid as though he had killed someone. They went about this all the wrong way. They were treating it like he was planning to do harm. He is just an average teenager blowing off steam through writing. He probably felt like many teenagers do. But, I guess nowadays being a normal teenager is cause for alarm.

How many times has anyone here needed to let off steam anywhere, for any reason, in high school, at work, even on vacation? Sometimes we(as humans)get mad. To blow it off some of us go to the gym. Some go for a run. Some go to the range(still healthy). And, some, as well as this kid, let it off through creative writing. And although this isn't the ideal thing to be writing about, and handing out to people, it is still good that he was able to release anger in a creative way.

It's too bad this happened, and it is too bad the authorities reacted that way.
 
Cactus,
You need to reread my post. I said the parents were unawre of their surroundings GIVEN THAT THEIR KIDS HAD RUN INS WITH LE. I stand by that statement. Their kids had all the material for making bombs in their rooms, which the parents never entered, for fear of 'stunting' their childs development. Which is liberalese for 'they were too busy with their own lives to properly parent their children'.

My parents entered my room daily, to check and make sure that I wasn't doing something they would disapprove of. That is a parents job, to raise their children the way they see fit. Not sluff it off on the education system. Not to sluff it off on the kids themselves. In this day and age of political correctness,parental control is now known as child abuse and the liberal mentality that children have the same rights as adults is absolute hogwash. If you want to treat your child as an adult and they fail your expectations as K & H did, then as the actual adult in the house, YOU SHOULD BEAR the responsiblity of your actions (letting your children grow up without proper parental influence). And our society as a whole is definately WORSE OFF! K & H are EXCELLENT examples of which I speak. The parents of both children should have been held legally and morally responsible for the acts of their CHILDREN. And they weren't then and never will be. It seems that more and more people just don't want to be held responsible for their actions and how those actions effect others in our society. And that, my friend, will be the downfall of this great country.

EG,
I disagree. NOT EVERYONE here thinks that police raid at 0130 was a bad thing, given that the kid 'threaten to kill people'. The biggest problem in society today is that most of us, 'just want to get along'. That mentality is what has us in the pickle we are in regarding our 2nd Amendment rights (and all our other freedoms for that matter). All of us pro-RKBAers have tried to 'just get along' with the liberals for FAR TOO LONG. It is time people start standing up and saying "THIS IS WRONG or THAT IS WRONG". And saying it loudly, over and over and over again. And standing up to all those #%$@#$*+@% liberals who do things JUST LIKE THIS is a place to start. So, if my disagreeing with the people here caused even ONE PERSON to rethink their stand on letting this one slide by, then I will NEVER chill out.

I have had an unpopular opinion on several issues. Just because you think your way is the best, doesn't mean it is. Same goes for me as well. But, at least I constantly get in the face of those I think are misguided at the best, or plain wrong, trying to take away my freedoms at the worst. I go to TRT confrontations. I stood outside the NRA convention here in Denver, the week of the Columbine shooting, shouting down all those pansy liberals who think WE DON'T have the rights god gave us. And there are those fence sitters (I have one as a customer) that think that if we just give in just a little more to the anti-gun crowd they will be happy. What a deluded thought! How about it? Do you (or any one else here) actually think giving in to the liberals ONE MORE TIME will shut them up when they continue to try and take away my rights and yours? I didn't think so!
 
Quite a talent !

Wallew, you not only can get inside the head of this boy, and Dylan & Klebold, but you can divine MY thoughts & intentions. There could be a career with "Psychic Friends" in it for you.

So, I can't make an observation of how others might respond unless I hold those views as well ? Hmmm...

E5M - have fun disecting and attacking this post, as you have with my others.

RH, out.
 
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