Now that the EOSM is over

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Rich Lucibella

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Staff Hat Off. Owner Hat on. The views presented herein reflect only the opinions of the author and are not necessarily shared by the Staff. (Actually, since Staff wasn't consulted, we may never know. :))

Just thought I'd drop this on you guys. Bill, Terri and a few others know what really happened with the public "cancelation" of the EOSM. They certainly know what happened with it's private rebirth. Neither I, nor any TFL Staff member were involved in these decisions. No hard feelings there...it was their show, their home, their effort.

For the record, I was not apprised of the fact that it was privately reslated until after we had tried to quell the bruhaha on this site....good little foot soldier that I am. ;)

When it suddenly became "public" again, in the form of after action reports and pictures, it left a real bad taste in some of our Members mouths. They felt it had been a private party for the TFL elite; that this site had been used to promote it and then the "guest list" was culled from the responses. Since none of the attendees has seen fit to apologize for the subterfuge, I offer my own in their place.

I'm pleased that it was so successful. I support all such get-togethers and am more than willing to lend our financial and bandwidth resources to such events in the future. But this is the first and last time this site will be used to announce and promote a group shoot, the details of which are provided only by private email.

No hard feelings. The backlash is, I think, temporal.
Rich Lucibella


[This message has been edited by Rich Lucibella (edited September 19, 2000).]
 
Rich,
Thanks, but I fail to see the problem.
ANY get togather by TFL members has to be a good thing. I don't understand why some people would feel miffed. Remember you can't please all the prople all the time.
And NO I was not at the shoot....but I sure enjoyed reading about it and the pictures were great. :)

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"Lead, follow or get the HELL out of the way."
 
Rich, thank you.

I was very much looking forward to making the trip to the EOSM when I saw that it was cancelled. I had no idea that it had indeed taken place until after the fact.

I was really looking forward to going. :(

CMOS

------------------
NRA? Good. Now join the GOA!

The NRA is our shield, the GOA will be our sword.
 
From my understanding, the names that were gathered for the "private meet" were names that originally POSTED they either planned on attending or undecisive. Those names then received emails from Bill and Terri. There was no secretive plot for the elite of TFL.

Since Bill and Terri had no way of finding out who else wanted to attend due to the thread being closed, they just went with the list they had.
 
Private party for TFL's elite, YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING... I was there.. nuff said.. :)it was a group of people who love there Country and thier Guns something ALL members of this forum have in common.


Gunslinger opened his home up and promoted the shooting sports... and in my view = did as fairly as possible. If some members take offence to that, well there's always ESOM #2.

I hope Gunslinger responds to this thread and reponds with his reasoning as to why things were done the way they were. I don't see why ANY of us who attended, need to apologize for our attendence at this meet. I would hope to meet others next year that did not make the trip and gain new friends and get to shoot and inspect all manner of firearms brought to such an occasion.
 
Uhm...

Did I miss something here? Was this the one in Missouri?

I thought that I had seen this particular shoot discussed in detail a number of times in the live shoots section?



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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
I'm sorry that this went to a private discussion, as I am partially to blame for that. I just wanted to respect Rich's wishes as to not discuss the meet here at TFL (at least that is what I thought was going on) plus the fact that some people from other forums were giving Gunslinger a hard time. Anyway, I offered a private forum over at my boards for Gunslinger and Terridarri so that we could continue on with our silly discussions about the meet. Gunslinger tried to contact everyone that was intrested in coming and did his best to include as many as possible. I in no way intended on taking any members from TFL (as a few have said), I just wanted to help out with what I could. :( Sorry.

I don't think anyone meant to be disrespectful to TFL, Rich , or staff members (hey a few staff were there :)) I hope everyone can just realize that Gunslinger had his hands full with non-members wanting to come.

I am still glad I went and that the meet went on as planned. We did have a nice time and met a lot of nice people. We are all hoping to see more faces there next year (which I hope will include Rich!). I trust Gunslinger will make the correct choices in planning the next meet.

Rich, we appreciate you giving us all a place to meet here at TFL, we have all made some good life time friends because of this board. Thank you. :)
 
Rich,

With respect, I don't see that 'Slinger and Terri had any choice but to restrict attendance. The risk of promoting any shooting event on the internet is that more people will respond than available facilities will accomodate. 'Slinger and Terri were inundated by "new" TFL'ers insisting they had a right to attend a private "family" party.

I hope you will reconsider. I think TFL'ers should retain the option of "closing" an event if the number of responses makes including everyone impossible. Otherwise, I believe that fewer TFL get-togethers will take place, which is a bad thing.

Any time a party is thrown, the sponsors should have the option of inviting those who have become close to them and whose opinions and beliefs they value. This is not "elitism," it is Freedom of Association.

Highest regards,

Mike Ledbetter
 
Sandy-
No such thing as "taking Members away from TFL". Members belong to themselves and wander in and out...hopefully to as many Boards as possible.

Ledbetter-
I agree with every point you make. But you forget one important one: The EOSM was promoted at all those other sites....actively....with links to this one for those who wished to attend. That was fine with us.

But sometimes we need to "Be careful what we ask for." When the invitees answered the call, attendance was not publicly closed due to demand; it was publicly cancelled and privately resurrected. After it was over, TFL was used to regale the fun that was had. How's that make those TFL Members who would have liked to have gone but didn't receive an invite feel? How's it make TFL look?

While I welcome the comments of attendees, my post is directed to those who feel it wasn't handled properly. They have a right to feel that way and I am, in part to blame: I found out, after the "cancellation", that it was going forward. Yet I kept my mouth shut. That makes me something less than honest and I don't like being less than honest. My opening post is an apology for my silence and a pledge that this site will never actively or tacitly be involved in such a situation again.
Rich
 
I didn't know about the EOSM until after it was over. I'd like to make it to the next meet, whenever it will be, since I'm in the area.
 
Rich,

I appreciate the distinction you have pointed out, as well as your aversion to dishonesty. I was not aware that the event was promoted on other sites. I am thinking of inviting central California TFL'ers (and only TFL'ers) to a meet at a facility that will accomodate only around 25 shooters. Would I be able to announce a limited invitation on TFL to the first 25 persons to respond?

Rich, thanks for all your consideration and forbearance in the operation of this forum. It's one of the best on the 'net, and a great resource for those interested in defensive weaponry and the exchange of related opinions and information.

Regards,

Ledbetter

[This message has been edited by Ledbetter (edited September 19, 2000).]
 
There is something amiss when someone feels entitled to someone elses private get together. It is one thing to ASK for an invite, something altogether different to expect one.
 
For the record what started this at this juncture was I recieved a E-mail from Rich asking about my posts here and why I felt TFL has sliped down off of the high road it once proudly took. http://www.1911forum.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000886.html

I explained to Rich why I felt that TFL had sliped and one major reason was the EOSM along with some moderators not doing their job of locking off topic posts like EOSM.

EOSM was publicly anounced here and on several other boards. When things got out of hand for mutiple reasons the meet was PUBLICLY cancled. Then it was taken to private e-mail. Next thing we know it's being flaunted all over TFL after being cancled. Not one (1) moderator locked down the thread and let the "TFL elete" contune on their merry way flaunting EOSM in everybodys face.

I wanted to attend EOSM but being in the military was unable to when the meet was PUBLICLY cancled. Then I was able to schedule leave for EOSM but was under the impresion it was canceled. I never ever dreamed I should have asked sombody by private e-mail if it was really cancled of if it was cancled for "spin control" and was really being held in secret. (sound familiar)

I've also been told that EOSM was for "veteran" TFLers, I guess that becoming a member in June of 99 does not make me a "veteran" member and I joined TFL only for EOSM. GET REAL people EOSM weather you want to admit it or not was by invitation only to the most prolific posters who had formed a friendship and clique. Outsiders, lurkers and those of us who did not carry on with major posting were not wanted or invited. Then the pictures were flaunted in our faces by that EOSM clique. And yes I feel some TFL staff and members has formed a clique.

This really pissed me off and I went from visiting TFL several times a day to once a week ifin that, cuz TFL and it's moderators had started acting like the other firearms forums (you know who I mean) and was no longer taking the high road in my opnion. After posting what I did on the 1911 forum I recieved quite a few e-mails from others that were regulars on TFL but felt "burnt" by TFL and the EOSM. Several of them stated how they were suprized that I was willing to speak out against TFL since the staff had "ganged up" on several other people who had posted somthing bad about them or TFL.

Now Dennis is attempeting to regain the high road by locking down off topic posts and recieving all kinds of flack for his effort. Dennis should be appluaded for his efforts in attempting to bring TFL back to Rich's orginal ideas and Take the High Road.


Flame suit on.............Fire away
 
Greetings,

The suggestion that TFL has somehow "not taken the high road" because of the actions of some of its members is absurd. There is wisdom in Dave D's and DorGunR's posts.

Bottom line: There was a party, you didn't get invited. Don't let it ruin your life. Nobody invites bitter, irrational people to parties. [edit]Hopefully we'll be invited to the next one.[/edit]

Ledbetter

[This message has been edited by Ledbetter (edited September 19, 2000).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ledbetter:
Greetings,

Bottom line: There was a party, you didn't get invited. Don't let it ruin your life. Nobody invites bitter, irrational people to parties.

Ledbetter [/quote]

So now I'm bitter and irrational and that's the reason we were not invited. Hummmmm not bad not bad but was it really that good of a defense?????


Next :D :D :D
 
Joey,

Like I stated above, the meet was not meant to snub anybody out. People that stated they were attending or "possibly attending" were added to an email list.

When it went private, that list got passed around. Hell, I didn't know about the list until a member asked me if I was still going. Once I notified gunslinger, I got added onto the list.

There were quite a few people at the meet who recently signed up and or had only a few posts. I didn't recognize over half of em.

Bottom line, if you had a huge meet at your house, would you want a bunch of drunken idiots firing off their ar15's like there's no tomorrow? Especially with young kids and neighbors around?

I had no idea that the meet was advertised at other sites. If that's the case, then the invitation for problems came to easily.

If you would've stated you wanted to attend but not sure if you could, your name would've been on the list too. There were no special requirements that I know of. Once slinger sees this thread, maybe he can throw some light on the subject.

From our discussions on 1911 forum, it would've been a pleasure to meet you and share 1911 stories.
 
Originally posted by Rich:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>...Since none of the attendees has seen fit to apologize for the subterfuge, I offer my own in their place. ...[/quote]

Interesting perspective ...

Originally posted by Joey:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>... I never ever dreamed I should have asked sombody by private e-mail if it was really cancled of if it was cancled for "spin control" and was really being held in secret. (sound familiar)...[/quote]

Joey, I think that's exactly what I did, if I remember correctly. I emailed Gunslinger and told him I would be interested in attending, if he saw fit to go on with it.

**********************

I'm unsettled by this. I was an EOSM attendee. On one hand, I don't feel like I did anything for which I should apologize. On the other hand I have grown to respect what I think is Rich's instinctual bent to fairness. I was under the impression that all TFLers that had expressed themselves to Gunslinger, as I had, were invited. No one told me that, I just assumed it (don't say it!) because as I recall, I didn't get any hint of a "secret", off-line EOSM until I emailed Gunslinger about my willingness to attend.

Now, this may sound contrived, because I have had a MASSIVE hard drive failure since then, and someone else that attended can verify or refute my memory of the sequence of events, but it was cancelled, no doubt about it. For a day or two I was thinking I could spend the traveling expenses on a Ruger MkII .22 pistol, but I recall Gunslinger responding to my email that there seemed to be enough interest remaining that he would consider it. It was a few days later that I got another email that it might still be on.

So, as far as a conspiracy goes ... I don't buy it. It might look that way, but I don't think so. Sorry you feel that way.

Rich, respectfully, I am particularly disappointed that you feel the need to apologize for me. I only speak for myself in this. I do understand that you have TFL's interests to heart.


[This message has been edited by sensop (edited September 19, 2000).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ArmySon:
Joey,

Bottom line, if you had a huge meet at your house, would you want a bunch of drunken idiots firing off their ar15's like there's no tomorrow? Especially with young kids and neighbors around?

[/quote]

I'd have no problem with drunks as alcohol and firearms do not mix. As in the case of EOSM I'm sure all firearms were locked up prior to anybody breaking out the adult beverages. (if you do not drink then you can be armed) Ifin sombody violated this rule they would be well aware of the results of drinking and playing with firearms. I've got several pairs of handcuffs and even more flexie cuffs. The fool would find themselvs hog tied for the night and then would go away the next day.

Sensop,

I don't think it was a conspiracy but somthing that was not thought out and really snowballed. It's not so much that EOSM was conducted but the aftermath about the pictures and the perception of events after being openly cancelled. At work this would be termed stupid airman tricks. (I'm sure you understand)
 
Not being part of the clique (or am I? how does one know?) I find this whole thread irrelevant to the future of TFL as a vessel to promote RKBA.

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"Anyone feel like saluting the flag which the strutting ATF and FBI gleefully raised over the smoldering crematorium of Waco, back in April of ‘93?" -Vin Suprynowicz
 
Joey-
Thanks. I appreciate your comments, your candor and your criticsm. I consider all of them constructive.

Ledbetter-
- Wanna announce "First 25 to sign up"?... We'll promote it here.
- Wanna announce, "Private Party: Contact me by email for application"?... You'll have our support.
- Wanna attack another Member's character simply because he chooses to stand up to you and me?... Check your email. Our Policies apply to all of us.

Unfortunately, the threads in George's Forum are gone, but certainly Sensop remembers the chain of events. At one point, a number of organizers (Sensop, I think this included you) had developed taglines to use on the other Boards to promote the event. This was at a time when there was some trepidation that there wasn't enough interest in the event.

When the desired result was obtained and people started to sign up as TFL Members, the SHTF. And Staff was right there to support the organizers' right to limit the event in any way they saw fit. Remember that Sensop?

But here's the deal....in the end attendance was limited, not by banging the gavel, but by subterfuge. And it's simply not accurate to state that all TFL Members who expressed an interest were invited. People read about the event, specifically thru our efforts, and became TFL Members in order to attend. Did we simply say, "Sorry we're at capacity". Nope. We skinned that cat another way....a way which I find personally distateful.

I've been in touch with Gunslinger on this today and I hope he knows that I'm not "attacking" him any more than Joey is "attacking" me. GS has promised to provide some input later.

deanf-
Your right. This thread has nothing to do with our fight for RKBA...but it has everything to do with the solidarity of this Forum. If we believe in personal responsibility and accountability, then we have to accept same. It's not meant to start a battle. Only to pledge that this will never happen again.
Rich

[This message has been edited by Rich Lucibella (edited September 19, 2000).]
 
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