Not voting for Bush or Gore, a dagger in the heart of gun owners.

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I'm not sure that I agree with the following theory or not, but I'll present it anyway.

It must get worse before it can get better.

How many more people are fed up with the government in general (and the president in particular) now, than were eight years ago? Clinton has done conservatism a great service by staying in office for eight years and alienating many Americans; but there are still not enough of us to make any significant changes.

We need Al Gore to serve at least four years and maybe eight to have enough people on our side to make a major change in our country.

But with that, we must also keep the Republicans in control of congress. This will allow the people to (hopefully) stave off any additional anti-freedom laws, but allow Gore to hang himself on Executive Orders and ham-handed handling of Social Security, the Military, Foreign Policy, etc. This will open the eyes of many individuals who are currently asleep to the abuses of power that are now inherent in our government.

The time that Gore takes to really foul things up can be used to bring more citizens to a third party. Once it is apparent that there are a large bloc of voters that can "swing" the vote, the Repubs and Dems will begin to change their platforms to woo these voters to their side. This is the only way that common, middle-class voters can change the policies of the two major political parties in the United States.

The very possible downside to this is that there could be even more freedom-killing laws passed during the Gore era. These, like similar laws in the past, will never be successfully repealed.

Whaddaya think?


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RKBA!
"The people have the right to bear arms for their defense and security"
Ohio Constitution, Article I, Section 4 Concealed Carry is illegal in Ohio.
Ohioans for Concealed Carry Website

[This message has been edited by TheBluesMan (edited June 02, 2000).]
 
This is a real problem, at least for me, because I don't like to vote for anyone based on one single issue.

Gore wants the government to treat citizens like slightly retarded children. He wants to tell them what's good for them and how to run their lives. His adminstration will eat away at our rights in the name of "protecting us from ourselves".

Bush is a marginally competent administrator who gets by because the people who bankroll him buy him high-priced advisors. He's bought and paid for by big-money interests who will screw Joe Average economically and environmentally.

Both are cogs in political machines that keep the voters compliant by grandstanding and passing stupid band-aid laws instead of actually fixing problems.

Third-parties have a snowball's chance in hell of actually getting elected. The Libertarians come closest to my own convictions, but there are a few planks in their platform I disagree with.

So what am I gonna do? My philosophy in the past has been to vote for balance. If we have one party in the White House and the other in the majority on Capitol Hill, it keeps either one from going to extremes.

I know this is a firearms forum but I feel compelled to point out that there ARE other issues to consider in an election.
 
What I am getting sick and tired of hearing is the (and now I'm gonna say it, doggone it!) is the swaggering middle-school-jock-style posturing of those dubbing ideas as "garbage" and "frightened".

Excuse me.

You know who you are, but this kind of grandstanding does not contribute an iota to this conversation, and I actually find it quite presumptuous.

If you think anyone voting for Bush does so because he/she is a bedwetting coward who cannot use his/her head, you, sir, are the one who needs to use your head better.



[This message has been edited by 416Rigby (edited June 02, 2000).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JerryM:
What do you think you will accomplish by voting for a third party or not voting at all? Will it make the two major parties change?[/quote]

Not voting will certainly not influence the two major parties. In fact, they probably like it -- the fewer people that vote, the greater the influence of their committed cadre.

But voting for third-party candidates absolutely can and does influence major parties. The problem is that the third-party candidates have to attract a certain level of support. When such a candidate's support gets high enough, it not only draws the support of other voters who are only dimly aware that they have choices other than the two media-endorsed candidates that are put in front of them, but it frightens the major parties into paying attention to the issues that are attracting voters to the third party. If all the people that say "I'd vote for a third-party candidate if..." would just go ahead and cast that vote, the third-party policies we want to see implemented would be, either by the third party or by major parties that co-opt those positions.

And our own national history shows clearly that major parties can fall into obscurity as so-called third parties rise to supplant them. Anyone recall the last time we elected a Whig president? (Zachary Taylor, 1848.)




[This message has been edited by David Roberson (edited June 03, 2000).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RMc:
Gore: A car slamming into a cement wall at 100 MPH;
Bush: A car slamming into a cement wall at 95 MPH.

I'll not take a ride in either one, thank you.[/quote]

You're going to get one of them, the only thing you get to do is influence which one it is. :)

BTW, I really don't think that Bush is 95% as bad as Gore on the topic of guns, and I really can't see how anyone could actually think that!
 
We have Clinton (twice) because a third party pulled the conservative vote.

The next president will appoint a number of Surpreme Court Judges.

There has been statements made about electing Gore so America can be pushed over the edge ?? What does that mean?

A couple years ago I was discusing with a good friend (he's a hunter, Hi-Power Service Rifle Shooter, Plinker, Handloader etc. etc.) about possible registration of firearems by the govt. and asked the question would Americans fight for that right? His response was if you think I'm willing to give up everything I've worked for (he was 54 at that time)all my life because I have to register my guns your crazy. I don't think this is an isolated response. Americans overall what their creature comforts and will probably be willing to give up a lot of rights to have those comforts. You may call them whimps etc. but I believe thats the way it is.

REALLY THINK HARD before voting for a 3rd party. The new Surpreme Court Judges will make a difference either way.

Turk
 
A vote for ANYONE but BUSH is a vote for GORE. Do you want Gore in the White House? I don't.


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Gary L. Griffiths
Chief Instructor
Advanced Force Tactics, Inc.
 
David Roberson,
I must admit that if enough people voted for a third party candidate it could influence the major parties. I wouldn't argue that the Perot votes influenced the Republicans some, but where are they now? Was the protest vote worth getting Clinton for eight years? Realizing that there is no way a third party candidate is going to win the White House this election the question then comes down to whether or not your statement is worth putting Gore in the White House. If you think so then go for it. However, I would say to you and others that if you vote third party and Gore does get in please don't gripe to me about the consequences of his election as president since you didn't do what you could have done to keep him out. Regards, Jerry
 
Jerry, I know the people who are behind the third parties are sincere and, in any other year, I'd probably go third party as well.

I was laying awake last night and got to thinking about all the posts that will be on this forum in the future if Gore is elected.
Crys about how somebody's $13,000 o/u shotgun got cut up. Stories about peoples homes being raided for guns. Complaints about how the local police chief refused to issue the gun owner id/license. At some point, The Firing Line Forums could become The Farting Line Forums, because that's all we'll have to shoot.

Will my neighbor, a big strong guy who takes no gruff from anyone, fight instead of handing over his .45? Hell, he can't even quit the job he hates.

We've been beating this horse for way too long. Maybe it's time to let it decay in peace.

Dick
 
My .02: Robert A Heinlein said it a long time ago " The difference between bad and worse is INFINITELY more important than the difference between good and better. " I am a registered member of the Libertarian Party, and generally vote that way on local races, but I don't think that the 2nd could survive 8 or even 4 years of Gore. I will hold my nose (gently) and vote for Bush.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JerryM:
However, I would say to you and others that if you vote third party and Gore does get in please don't gripe to me about the consequences of his election as president since you didn't do what you could have done to keep him out.[/quote]

And I'll respond to you and others here on this thread that if by some chance Bush is elected, then when he poses proudly in the Rose Garden as he signs a batch of new gun control bills into law, let's not have you and other Republicans whining that he sold us out. He will only be doing what he said he would do. I'm not sure why some here don't believe him. I do.
 
Dave,
I doubt Bush will sign a gun control bill. The Republicans must maintain at least an *image* of being a second political party.

I believe the Democrats will cooperate with Bush and put gun control measures in an amendment to an apparently necessary bill - a bill that "must" be signed (eg something that would hurt those people on Social Security, military retirement or other federally funded programs).

Then Bush can sign gun control while washing his hands like Pontious Pilate and whining that he couldn't shut the government down or hurt the poor people getting government funds.

But Bush will implement and/or oversee further gun control measures - through legislation, executive orders, and/or through the executive branch.

Bush won't be able to seat favorable Supreme Court Justices because Congress will only approve those *they* like. The Democrats will scandalize anyone *we* would like and more compromises will be made.

And the Republicans have their excuse pre-prepared because they just don't have enough Republicans in Congress.

No (sigh), it won't be as bad as Gore wants or would implement. Bush's gun control will me *much* more acceptable. Gun owners will proclaim victory because they will minimize *our* losses, again. And again. And again.

(and the frogs slowly come to a boil....)

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Either you believe in the Second Amendment or you don't.
Stick it to 'em! RKBA!

TFL End of Summer Meet, August 12th & 13th, 2000
 
A (?formerly?) staunch Republican sent me the following in reference to

the necessity of voting for Bush.

(quote)
"Necessity is the excuse for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of the tyrant and the creed of the slave." William Pitt, 1763
(unquote)

I originally found that quote a bit harsh.
Now I find it rather frightening.

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Either you believe in the Second Amendment or you don't.
Stick it to 'em! RKBA!

TFL End of Summer Meet, August 12th & 13th, 2000
 
Regardless of who pushes it over the edge, the gun control debate will eventually come to this ... The number of Americans willing to die to keep their firearms vs the number of Americans the government is willing to kill to take them away.

You Libertarians out there have to realize one thing; none of you will be depriving Gore of even a single vote. When it comes to the Presidential elections, you need to swallow all of that pride and arogance and vote for the conservative candidate.

In the mean time, you need to fight to get more lower level Libertarian candidates elected at the local level so they can eventually become viable Presidential candidates. The time for a Libertarian President is not now. It will be eventually, but not now.

The greatest single thing that the Libertarian Party could do is abandon the drug plank. I talk to person after person and they <b>all</b> say essentially the same thing which goes something like "I like the Libertarian Party and what they stand for, but that drug thing is what keeps me from becoming a Libertarian."

So flame away but I am a Libertarian at heart and I vote Libertarian at the local level but I don't waste my vote at the Presidential level.

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Gun Control: The proposition that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her own panty hose, is more acceptable than allowing that same woman to defend herself with a firearm.
 
Jimpeel,

Let me see now. If I vote for what I think is right, it is "pride and arrogance".

Let me swallow my "pride and arrogance" for just a moment to ask if voting for Republican and Democratic gun control will make me less prideful and arrogant or merely less free.

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Either you believe in the Second Amendment or you don't.
Stick it to 'em! RKBA!

TFL End of Summer Meet, August 12th & 13th, 2000
 
Ok, I as usual, will put this debate to bed
with my twenty dollars worth, since , because of my carefull anyalis of the situation, I think my advise and views are worth a lot more than just 2 cents.
:rolleyes: ;)

First off, I agree with Jim Peel, but I have a slightly different angle.

I was (past tense) a Republican for
30 years and just this year joined the Liberitairian party having become thoughly
disgusted with Republican turn-coat-ism.

MY SOLUTION IS >>>>>

Vote for Bush for pres and split your vote to elect all the Libritarian canidates
for offices below president.

If there are no liberitarian canadates
for a particular office then vote republican.

THIS ALLOWS BUSH TO BE ELECTED AND KEEPS GORE AND ALL OTHER DEMOCRAPS IN THE
PRIVATE SECTOR WHERE THEY BELONG AND OUT OF POLITICS .

THIS ALSO GIVES US, hopefully, SOME LIBERITARIAN SENATORS AND REPS TO STAND UP FOR THE SECOND AMMENDMENT WHEN THE REPUBLICANS "(so called--cave in --to democrap pressure) and stick us with some
not as bad as Gore new gun laws.

If the liberitarians can influence the senate and house, maybe the turn coat republicans trying to give us gun control lite will have a really hard and rough time
of it.

Maybe we can even water the proposed anti freedom law down a significant whole lot.

WE JUST CAN NOT ELECT ANY THIRD PARTY CANADATES THIS ELECTION AND ANY VOTES FOR
THIRD PARTY.....
(except the Bush for pres. split ticket libritarian VOTE I outlined to you above)

...... WOULD ONLY SERVE TO ELECT OUR WORST NIGHTMARE, GORE.

We can retain almost all of our most important second ammendment rights;
with the posible exception of the ability to make new purchases of assault rifles and high cap mags, by VOTING FOR BUSH and splitting the ticket by voting Liberitarian for all offices below President.

We should, each of us, already possess
all the assault rifles we intend to own, as well as mags & ammo and maybe a couple of "spair" assault rifles as well.

If you don't already have em, you have
seven months left to get em; after that, start looking to buy used, and at a high price, if possible.

Rmc said "Gore ,100 mph into cement wall and Bush 95mph into wall."

Rmc , sorry, I think you made a bad call on that.

Bush is more like 45 mph into the cement
wall with both feet hard down on the power brakes.

Sure, its still a collision, at say maybe 18mph,with big black skid marks on the asphault, but at least the car can be rebuilt
and injuries were mitagated and not critical.

With Gore, the car is TOTALED, removal of engine remains from the rear seat with no colision insurance and no survivors.

As far as 4 years of Gore waking up the sheeple,if they are not awake by now after all that has happened, they never will be and are already a lost cause.

Except for the occasional convert to our cause, made on a one to one basis; that is to say, you take one of your sheeple friends aside and enlighten them and tell em the way it really is.

They will never be willing or able to figure it out just by seeing the most worst
bad example of Gore.

They need to be hit in the head with the facts, kinda like when I have to hit my pit bull with a two by four just to get her attention.

And as far as a Shooting Revolution
if they try to confiscate our guns,I wouldn't bet on it and in fact, don't believe
most Americans have "what it takes".

I believe in the "I am not about to jeprodise my family and all that I have worked for " senario in 99% of all cases.

This leaves us with only the option of working within the "system", corrupt as it already is; and stuck with the choice of the lesser of the two evils.

There are far too many Americans of the
opinion of "go along to get along" and "dont
rock the boat" as they are just so happy with their creature comforts and their dependency (read slavery) to the government.

So , there , thats my best advise.
I hope it helped someone.

------------------
GUN CONTROL puts THE CONTROL
in the hands of THE CRIMINALS.


-----------------------------------------------
In 2000, we must become politically active in
support of gun rights or we WILL LOSE the right
& the freedom.
-------------------------
NO FATE BUT WHAT WE MAKE!!!
----------------------
Every year,over 2 million Americans use firearms
not to take live but to preserve life,....limb & family
.Gun Control Democrats would prefer that they are all disarmed
and helpless and die victims of felony violence,instead.

Protect your gun rights, go to:
http://www.trteam.com/
The Tyrany Response Team
 
Ernest,

VERY good post and a reasonable compromise.
(Ouch! Did *I* say that 'c' word?)

1) We differ on the car analogy. I fear Bush is a 45 mph crash with his foot on the gas. Most honestly, I believe the Democrats and Republicans are working together to bring our country down to internationalist standards. As a believer in our Constitution, I have no recourse but to fight that. Your voting suggestion shows a lot of logic in a middle-of-the-road approach.

2) We all should consider your wise warning of having only a few months to obtain the firearms we want/need. It remains to be seen how Clinton will affect that time period - it could be much less.

3) I also agree with your estimation of most Americans as being sheeple (*my* interpretation). But, again, as a believer in our Consitution, strongly preferring Constitutional freedoms over the Socialist welfare state, I must continue the struggle to awaken Americans to the danger at hand. The distasteful arguments must continue if Americans are to avoid becoming wards of the nanny state.

(Believe me, Ernest, I'd much rather be doing something else. I don't enjoy the struggle - not at all.)

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Either you believe in the Second Amendment or you don't.
Stick it to 'em! RKBA!

TFL End of Summer Meet, August 12th & 13th, 2000
 
The Rock is now going to weigh in on this one.

The Rock is Libertarian.

The Rock believes that we should hang all politicians just on account of what they are.

The Rock doesn't understand why we need them at all.

However, The Rock needs time. W will give The Great One that. Little Willie will not. The Rock is going to buck the TFL trend and say that TSWHTF soon. Will my cause be successful? Don't know. Hope So.

I will fight will every molecule of The Rock's strength and courage.

If you egghead libs vote for Gore, I'll remember you right before, and The Rock qoutes, "Unleash Hell".

The Rock
 
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