Not "should I shoot?" but "could I shoot?" That is the question.

G

Gaxicus

New member
There are a million threads dedicated to scenarios and legal advice pertaining to "should I shoot?" issues. This is not meant to be one of them. This thread is meant to discuss and equally important question "could I shoot?".

My apologies for other threads that confused the two issues badly.

Could I really shoot someone if I needed to?

That question can be a struggle for defensive firearm owners, new or veteran, and the trainers or experts they look to for help in their journey of answering it.

Please post your experiences, ideas, successes, and failures in going through your own, or helping someone else go through their, decision making process.

Please leave the macho stuff out, but leave the hypersensitive PC stuff out too. If you are going to criticize someone else, offer an alternative to what you are criticizing.

Enjoy
 
I would surely hate it & know I would feel bad even if was the worse scumbag. If it came down to them or my family, though...


Having a kid made me get more into the SD/PD/HD thinking of firearms, but the LARGE majority of my interest in guns is sport, just plain fun.



Tough issue, for sure, but I think: If one is not sure you can do it if you were faced w/that danger, not sure if one should carry


JMO
 
You could shoot if "in fear of imminent loss of life or severe bodily injury". The BG MUST have:

A. The ABILITY to inflict serious bodily injury. He is armed or reasonably appears to be armed.

B. The OPPORTUNITY to inflict serious bodily harm. He is positioned to harm you with his weapon, and,

C. His INTENT (hostile actions or words) indicates that he means to place you in jeopardy - to do you serious or fatal physical harm.
 
Why answering "Could I?" is important

How any particular person answers this question is just as important is when.

Most people agree that the time to do this is before prepping a bedside gun, putting your carry gun in your purse or holster, or considering using a gun for defensive purposes at all.

That doesn't mean don't buy a gun, get your carry permit, or take classes. It means that those things are not enough for you to be ready to use a firearm defensively.

The worst time to be making up your mind about whether you can actually pull the trigger is the moment when you think might have to.

Some people really have a hard time answering this under no additional stress and find themselves conflicted, unsure, and intimidated by the question.

Add all of that to a high stress defensive situation and you are just asking for panic. Panicky people with guns are at least as much a danger to themselves and their loved ones as they are to any predator.

To be able to maintain your composure, make good decisions, and assure the best chance that you will achieve an acceptable outcome in such a situation, you should really have this "Could I" question answered as soon as possible but it is important to give yourself time to do it thoroughly enough to find resolve.

This thread is all about this "Could I?". How you answer it, how you can help others answer it, or just discussing the different aspects of the decision itself.
 
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Its not about Should I, its Could I

You could shoot if "in fear of imminent loss of life or severe bodily injury". The BG MUST have:
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The topic isn't really about the legal "good shoot" issues.

Its about how a person prepares and pre-decides their own approach to possibly taking life to protect ones self/others.

I dont mean to be picky but you can find tons of threads for "good shoot" scenarios.
 
I have been ready to do so on three occasions and would not have hesitated, but thankfully, I ultimately did not have to. The presence of my weapon caused the threat to retreat on each occasion. I cannot tell you how happy I am that no one was injured.

Could I? Well, I could then. Today? I surely believe so, but I hope I never have to put it to the test.
 
react to the situation, follow your procedures and training. no hesitation.

IMO that is why you should train rigorously and in as stressful of an environment as you can safely replicate.

Years of doing training in Flight Simulators has show me how necessary it is to be able to initiate an emergency response without thinking about it...while at the same time blocking out distractions and staying on top of your situational awareness.

Performance in an emergency is a skill that needs practice. I've watched countless videos of myself and co-pilot(s) handling different inflight emergencies and there is no substitute for repetition, adherence to procedures, and experience.

When it comes to pulling the trigger if the situation calls for it, no hesitation. if I didn't feel confident in that, i wouldn't carry or even consider carrying.

I'm not one of those "if i have to pull my gun, rounds will be forthcoming" type of guys. (i hate the phrase "clearing leather") Pulling out a weapon can be an "almost" last defense as a deterrent...shooting being the ultimate last defense (debatable). That is why situational awareness is so important.

Drill, Drill, Drill. Home invasion drills, simulated ATM situations, carjacking, escorting a "date" defense, and others depending on your job and environment. You have to take your drilling seriously though, sitting at the range and plinking is not the same. (although increased familiarity with your weapons and better accuracy is good) Videotaping your training is an underutilized technique. You'll see the good things you do and bad. I've noticed that at times I get tunnel vision on my "attacker". So I work on keeping my head on a swivel. Now it comes second nature to me and the difference is noticeable when I review films. Now I'm confident that if it happens in real life, I'll be less likely to make the same mistake again...but I won't be thinking about it, it comes naturally like a reflex.

The same thing goes for pulling the trigger. People have different "breaking points" when it comes to when they'll fire. Lord knows PBP and Creature just spend about 2k posts arguing about ALMOST this sort of thing and the only thing we've determined is that:
1. everyone has their own opinion to some extent or another
2. Creature brings nothing to any discussion except for his contrary attitute. JK ;)
Figure out your "breaking points" as best you can and practice situations that meet and also fall short of those standards. I know that i've screwed up in practice and "shot" my assailant when he didn't have a weapon, and other times I didn't notice a 2nd threat and hesitated (resulting in my "death"). So I keep practicing and practicing, training myself to look at hands and not faces, head on a swivel, identify escape routes, etc. Each practice session i'll look over the video of and assess how it went. I generally have 3 cameras in use for these things. Wide angle elevated camcorder to give overall view, then I will wear one of my cycling helmets with a helmet-cam and my assailant will wear one as well.
I would cringe if i viewed some of my earlier videos, it was uuuugly. But you learn more from your mistakes.
Anyway, it took quite a while, but I'm finally at the point where I consistently follow my self defense procedures w/o thinking about them and when it calls for me to "shoot", I do so immediately. I'm confident in a "real life" situation I would revert to my training and perform as close to this as my elevated adrenaline would allow me.

I really think you should take as many weapons classes as you can. Close quarter, marksmanship, h2h combat, whatever you feel comfortable with. The more you practice the more second nature it will become to act under extreme stress and IMO that is one of the hardest obstacles to overcome in any defense situation.
 
If I understand you right you are not asking when is it legally/morally ok to perforate someone. You are asking if you as an individual have the intestinal fortitude/guts/blood thirst/stones/etc. to press that tiny little lever which frees another lever which smacks a pointy thing into a little cup of gas generating explosives which pushes a lead pellet across space and into the body of another human being, knowing full well that 3-8 pounds of force applied by your index finger will likely result in a bloody, painful, life altering and maybe life ending wound. Did I get it right?

The answer is I don't know and you probably don't know yet either. If you have picked up a gun and consciously thought through the possible consequences of that action and you did not put that gun back down, I would suggest that your answer is likely yes.

As a police and gun teacher of police I have learned that repetition and training preconditions most cops to be willing to shoot when needed. Thinking and talking the law and "what if" gives you the foundation for sound decision making. Playing with FATS and other simulators teaches you to recognize badness and react quickly. Force on force teaches you how to keep fighting when all your plans go into the toilet. All of this stuff helps give you more thinking space when things really do drop in the pot.

I've worked with a few guys who've had to dump someone on duty. One guy told me that he was ****** (angry) that the bad guy was trying to shoot him so he did what he needed to do to stop the guy from shooting at him. Another partner shot a bad guy to stop him from shooting at his partners. As far as I know, neither of these guys has ever had a day's heartburn over killing the guys who were trying to kill them.

One of my students once didn't engage in a gun fight not because of lack of bravery, but because he was behind his partner (who was shooting) and behind cover and would have made the situation worse had he broken cover and engaged. He told me later that something I had once said in passing kept him thinking and prevented him from putting himself in a worse situation when there was no real need.

I've pointed guns at plenty of people, fully intent on shooting some of them, but have never finally needed to shoot. I'm certain that if I need to I will, but then I'm not you.

Ask yourself, is saving your own life at the expense of another morally abhorrent to you? Can you accept wearing the mark of Cain (if you believe in that sort of thing) to save the life of an innocent? Be honest with yourself when you answer those questions. Don't use euphamisms. Say "Kill" and decide if you want to put down the gun or not.
 
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Not to be Captain Obvious again, but I think that if one has any real doubts about whether one "could" or "could not", then one should perhaps refrain from carrying, until the requisite amount of introspection is done to realize that one "could" indeed, if one's life, or loved one's life, is in danger of being snuffed out by a would be killer.

But given the scenario of being in mortal danger, if one still engages in emotional hand wringing about "could I possibly shoot", then that person needs psychological counseling in my opinion.
 
Now this is what I had in mind

I love crusty old cop and fighter pilot speak. Awesome.

I think this stuff can be a totally alien context for some people to see the world in.

I seriously doubt most people are conscious of the risks they take each day because they don't think like criminals. They might be a brain surgeon but they take silly risks like a teenager.

This is where I encounter a lot of resistance when trying to help people get their head around "pre-making their decisions". Plenty of them, with conviction, will say "I don't want to look at the world like there is a scumbag around every corner and a rapist under every bed". Of course, that is not what they are being taught but, to someone like that, its an understandable reaction.

Its easy for many of us to dismiss this reaction as childish but it is tough to watch a 45 year old financial man lose this innocence after his bubble of denial is popped by one of those people in this world that completely ignores the rules that civilized finance men live by.

There is a medium between the cynical paranoia and the blissful ignorance. The fear of many is that this medium could never be a happy one. I like to tell them that just because they lived in one extreme (la la land where everyone is safe and no means no) doesn't mean they have to live in another where everything and everyone is bad.

You don't have to be a fighter pilot or a cop to be a very effective defensive firearm owner. Thank God for fighter pilots and cops but I don't want either of them doing my taxes. We all reach our decision in our own context, intense training or not. The finance guy I mentioned is coming along nicely, but it hasn't been easy for him.

If context is king, I suppose one of the first steps should be taking a long and objective look at the world around us and see everything, not just what we want to see, not just what we fear, but everything and decide for ourselves what our role in such a world should be.

I don't mean to get all philosophical and ethereal here but it is a big issue. Big enough that this topic is discussed in literature, history, and religion by all the big players. Some of the writing so far in this thread is pretty damn good, I didn't want to fall short.

Gaxicus
 
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A reasonable conclusion.

But given the scenario of being in mortal danger, if one still engages in emotional hand wringing about "could I possibly shoot", then that person needs psychological counseling in my opinion.
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I am sure that most people would shoot if forced like that, but probably not very well, in time, or even in the right direction.

Having this question resolved allows a person to be purposeful, focused, calmer, and more effective. Its my belief that plenty of gun owners have not reached resolve with this question.

Many will say they have but it doesn't take a lot of digging to see how shallow the decision really is.

I thought the question worth a hashing out, just to make sure.
 
I look at it the same way I would if I was to get into a physical encounter with someone.

I am not saying I am billy bad ass at all, though I am a big guy, I know the power I posses and though not as powerful as a firearm I feel that I could inflict the same amount of harm just as a firearm.

I personally find that a physical confrontation is actually more barbaric then the use of a firearm for protection. You almost need to switch into savage mode hence throwing most of your wits and common sense out the window to be sure you will survive when attacked.

Now I know there are classes that teach some things..but well lets be honest, if you are losing....you need to step it up a notch or face the fact you maybe seriously injured or worse.

So with that being said, let me run this by and then readdress the original question. I was in a bar one night after work about 10 years ago in Rochester NY, was only there about 20 minutes.There was about 9 people there, a few old timers and a few guys my age with their ladies. Some crack head came in with a golf club smashed glasses off the bar, caught the bartender in the shoulder and head, then demanded the waitress empty the register in about 5-10 seconds.

Without even a thought I ran up behind him grabbed him and ran him into a wall at a full run his legs not even touching the ground. One of the other patrons opened the front door and I heard the shouting to bring him outside the cops were on their way. So that is what I did...his feet still off the ground I ran him outside and pummeled him into the sidewalk face first.

Some where in this he managed to reach back and grab hold of my jacket collar ..it was really not a big deal as the way I had him there was nothing he could do, until I realized I was then being kicked in the mid section by his partner who was waiting outside. Yes I was scared for my life at this point.

As I looked back to realize that no one was coming outside to aid me and as I later found out they had actually locked the door.

So there I was in a situation fighting for my life, I had used the sidewalk as a tool to knock the guy beneath me out and then rolled to my side grabbing the leg of the guy kicking me causing him to fall on his buddy.

I got to my feet and gave him the same treatment he gave me. I am not even sure how much time passed but this whole event lasted maybe a minute or two at the most for this whole ordeal to be over.

As I stood there in total shock of what had just happened and just making sure neither one got up, I realized I would NEVER want to be in this situation again. That..... although the tools I was born with saved my life even though I put it in jeopardy to aid others, I will never forget the feelings that ran through my head that night when it came down to that sort of physical encounter. The officers who showed up did tell me that what I just went through was an extremely stressful situation and that even though physically I was not hurt that maybe taking a trip to the hospital to get a volume or two would help mentally. Both bad guys were arrested and both charged with armed robbery and assault.

I will say I never paid for another drink at the bar through for the duration of my stay in Rochester lol.

Now to the original question, I guess I am lucky to have had the experience of a violent altercation like that to know that if a home invasion or burglary of some sort which justified me to use my firearm for protection over a physical altercation, I would choose my firearm and use it as the law allowed just as I would my own two hands if I did not own one.
 
I personally find that a physical confrontation is actually more barbaric then the use of a firearm for protection. You almost need to switch into savage mode hence throwing most of your wits and common sense out the window to be sure you will survive when attacked.
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+1
(super long post coming up)

The only gun confrontation I've had in my entire life was just like that. (commercial pilot here) I was stuck overnight in Atlanta, no car, at a hotel near the airport. Friday (11pm) I decided to walk and find some food. I was approached by a local man/panhandler saying how he was from new orleans and lost his house because of katrina and asked if I had any money. I told him no, but that I was going to get some food and I'd buy him dinner (trying to be a nice guy). We ended up going to KFC where no joke he f'ing ordered a 20 piece family bucket meal that came with mash potatoes, mac 'n cheese, biscuits, and a gallon of sweat tea. My bill was $38 and I used a credit card. It took forever for them to make all that food so we sat down and he gave me his life story and of course it was full of holes and BS, but it was Dec 23 and I figured giving him and and family a meal was 100 times better than giving him a handout.
Probably sat there talking for 15 minutes, and if it wasn't so obvious he was on drugs, I would have tried to help get him some seasonal work at the airport. Finally we get our food and leave, we say our goodbyes and he asks me if i can give him a couple of dollars for the bus home. Told him I was sorry, didn't have any cash that is why I charged the meal. He said "man, i'm sorry, but you sure you don't have any money for me"
At which point he pulls a gun out of the waistband of his sweatpants. He did not point it directly at me, but in his right hand had it pointed 45 degree off to the side. Immediately I stepped inside the arc of his arm and grabbed his wrist and elbow. He freaked out and dropped the gun and went straight into "sorry man sorry man" mode. He was a really small guy, like 5'4 110lb...I'm not big 5'9 175, but i wrestled through college so leverage and grappling are my friends. I proceeded to pummel him for a few seconds then flung him into the middle of the street where he was struck by a car going about 35mph. Cops told me later he broke both legs, a collarbone, some ribs and had some road rash.

Weird thing was, even looking back on it...I wasn't afraid for my life at all, it has never occurred to me, even now that he would have shot me. in my heart of hearts i think he just showed me the gun to scare me into giving him money and he was embarrassed to do it to a guy who had just bought him dinner. I don't feel bad about him almost dying, he shouldn't be pulling that sort of crap. I know that the cops would have never ever ever have arrested a "professional" white guy for assault after beating a crackhead who had pulled a weapon on him, but i wonder if theoretically if i had carried then and I shot him if I could have gotten in trouble since I honestly was never in fear of my life. The only memory of my thought process when it occurred was "how f'ing rude. my mom would be so upset at me if I did that to someone who bought me a meal."

I saw the gun and just went into full blown Kill Him Mode. I almost got hit by a car because after he was down in the street (and he slid a ways) I went in after him because I was not done. I guess I attribute it to my years of wrestling and limited krav maga training that I reacted the way i did. Until that event, i always thought of myself as a "he has a gun, here is my money" type of guy. After this event, I became a lot more serious about personal defense. I had been doing some krav maga for about 6 months at the time, and it really stresses the aggressive nature of fighting. I told my instructor about the "incident" when I got home the next week. Kind of recreated the altercation and he was so mad at me for disengaging (throwing him into the street) before he had been "disabled". Lectured me about how he could have had another gun and I was lucky the car hit him. So even though it was a "good fight" and ended favorably for me, I still messed up and will try to learn from my mistakes.

sorry for taking this a little OT
 
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As I looked back to realize that no one was coming outside to aid me and as I later found out they had actually locked the door.
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Haha some friends you have up there in NY!
I know plenty of people at my local bar that would be all too willing to help beat up some worthless crack head!
 
I just had one the other day. Some fellow was having a very bad day. I was returnig from the gun range of all places. This fellow pulled out from a parking lot in front of me, actually had to pass another fellow waiting for me to cross in front of him . I was under a hundred yards to a red stop and go. It seems that after he pulled in front of me, I was not far enough behind him. So he stops at the red light and gets out of his car and comes back towards me. Screaming about following too close.

I simply rolled down the window and informed him the light was green and it was time to go. I had a 41 revolver with me. All legal and cable locked. He advanced another step and I had it on my lap, I merely showed it to him, sideways to conceal the cable lock. He promptly left, probably went home to beat his wife or dog.

Could I have shot him? No time with that trussed up revolver. It was a nice heavy black jack/brick thing. If he would not have stood down, I would have been reduced to beating him about the head and shoulders with my revolver. At least it wears a Leupy scope, the lifetime warranty you know.

Had I been armed and he decided to continue in his error, I would have had absoulutely no problem putting one in his head through the open vehicle window. Why the head? Because I wold not have percieved him to be a threat until he was at the truck door. I would have been greatly distressed after the fact. Not about popping the punk, it was approaching suppertime and the LEO would have delayed my regular suppertime by several hours.

If you think you need a firearm to protect yourself or loved ones, you better be willing to use it. That is a desision you made when you got the thing for self defense. Now you better run through senarios and decide if you really want the gun.

I wonder if the LEO would have let me order take out?
 
You know, I always see people having these conversations, and honestly when non-gun people I know start talking about getting one I tell them they better be sure they could use it. I've never once even questioned whether or not I could. I don't know if it's because of how I was raised, or whom I was raised by (a special forces Sgt. who later went on to work for the NSA) but it was always kind of understood that guns weren't just for target shooting, and if the good guys don't do anything then the bad guys sometimes win.

When I went through Rifle training in the Army we lost a guy who suddenly decided he couldn't ever shoot someone, even if it was him or them. I thought it odd at the time, though maybe he was just in it for the college money. Who knows, we didn't talk about him more than a day after he was gone.

Maybe some people are just more desensitized to it? I've never once wondered at all whether or not I could shoot someone. I pray and hope I never have to, but that doubt really hasn't ever been there.
 
I misunderstood the question.

I think if you're not absolutely SURE you could shoot, you shouldn't carry a gun. Look at it this way:
1. An attacker puts you on the defensive.
2. Drawing your weapon puts him on the defensive.
3. Not being willing to use it puts you back on the defensive again, possibly against an attacker who is armed and is fully wiling to use it.

Never hesitate or bluff.
 
great thread.

i will not hesitate. i will do everything in my power to avoid it..but when i decide its necessary then there will be no hesitation.

i sincerely hope it NEVER happens, but my head is not in the sand.
 
Well said Keltyke. The problem is I think a lot of people think they're sure they could pull the trigger but when the moment is upon them, they learn a little bit about themselves. Not quite as much ice in their veins as they thought they had? Those of us who can will still find another part of the scenario. As the person is lying bleeding and praying or the corpse is on its back with its eyes open, you won't soon get that out of your head. You will most likely have nightmares. You might need some counseling to cope. It's ok. Someone whom that won't weigh on their mind is probably a little sociopathic. It would be normal to be messed up afterwords but consider the alternative.
 
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