davlandrum
New member
Someone needs to come up with bear spray that you could attach to like a flashlight rail - then you could pepper spray and fling lead simultaneously!!!!
Not hunting but need the power
- Thread starter DBLAction454
- Start date
Someone needs to come up with bear spray that you could attach to like a flashlight rail - then you could pepper spray and fling lead simultaneously!!!!
My vote would be a 12 gauge, however, I would load with 3in 00buck. Just my preference I guess. A slug is a lot of lead, but so it a load of buck shot. At the range that you would need to be using it(under 25 ft), I believe that it will cause more damage. At least the second shot should be buck shot.
2 3/4 00 buck put a 200ld boar hog down, when shot at 25ft. It put a 2in entry hole thru its chest, cut its heart in two, and a wound channel the size of a baseball. Did the job. And at that range there isn't a whole heck of a lot goign to stand up to it. Maybe plated if I was going into Griz country.
2 3/4 00 buck put a 200ld boar hog down, when shot at 25ft. It put a 2in entry hole thru its chest, cut its heart in two, and a wound channel the size of a baseball. Did the job. And at that range there isn't a whole heck of a lot goign to stand up to it. Maybe plated if I was going into Griz country.
Edward429451
Moderator
I'm highly skeptical of any public servant or agency who recommends bear spray over firearms. They could easily skew the statistics to show what they want it to. I know how they play the statistic game, if somene even sees a bear while having bear spray it goes down as a successful use.
There is so many variables that are not detailed and could effect the outcome of the so called 92 percent success rate that it is simply unbelievable. I'm not saying bear spray might not work. I'm saying for Gods sake dont take that 92% figure and start saying oh bear spray works all the time.
Firing on a bear doubles your chances of being hurt? Ehh, maybe but chances for survival are increased with a real defense. I'm waiting on some TFL'ers to get firsthand experiance with bear spray before I even start to believe in it (and then still carry a gun)
There is so many variables that are not detailed and could effect the outcome of the so called 92 percent success rate that it is simply unbelievable. I'm not saying bear spray might not work. I'm saying for Gods sake dont take that 92% figure and start saying oh bear spray works all the time.
Firing on a bear doubles your chances of being hurt? Ehh, maybe but chances for survival are increased with a real defense. I'm waiting on some TFL'ers to get firsthand experiance with bear spray before I even start to believe in it (and then still carry a gun)
I live in Wyoming and I guide hunters and talk to fishermen all the time. I am a gunsmith and so I rub shoulders with outdoorsmen every day. Lots of people come to Wyoming in summer as a prime place to take a vacation.
However, about 10% of Wyoming has the highest concentration of Grizzly Bears in the world per square mile. So bear encounters are quite common
The very question you ask is one that I bet I have been asked at least 300 times.
Here’s the problem;
A 44 magnum with a good hard bullet is a great thing to have with you at such time. And more is better.
However, of all the 3 major classes of firearms, (rifle, shotgun and handgun) the hand gun is BY FAR the most difficult to master.
If a man or woman is not a SHOOTER, they MUST become one. For such a purpose, they need to learn to shoot fast and accurately at close range. 15 yards and less but they need to be able to hit a MOVING 6” target and do it every time in under 2 seconds.
A rifle like a marlin 45-70 is a lot better and a shotgun with slugs is better still.
But long arms are very often NOT what you have on your person when you need to shoot unless you disciple yourself to carry them. Like a soldier in a combat zone, you may forget to put on your shirt before you would forget to take your weapon.
You MUST become a good shooter. Now if you are not going to be able to become a good shooter, it must be admitted that a large caliber and very powerful handgun at touching range is better then nothing and at contact range, you can kill a bear even if you can’t shoot well.
But like wearing a seat belt in a 60 MPH crash, you are not going to come out unharmed.
You may come out alive, but if a bear is close enough to bite you or claw you, life is not going to be enjoyable for a while after.
Buying a gun no more makes you defended than buying guitar makes you into a musician.
LEARN to use the tools well to be a good worker!
However, about 10% of Wyoming has the highest concentration of Grizzly Bears in the world per square mile. So bear encounters are quite common
The very question you ask is one that I bet I have been asked at least 300 times.
Here’s the problem;
A 44 magnum with a good hard bullet is a great thing to have with you at such time. And more is better.
However, of all the 3 major classes of firearms, (rifle, shotgun and handgun) the hand gun is BY FAR the most difficult to master.
If a man or woman is not a SHOOTER, they MUST become one. For such a purpose, they need to learn to shoot fast and accurately at close range. 15 yards and less but they need to be able to hit a MOVING 6” target and do it every time in under 2 seconds.
A rifle like a marlin 45-70 is a lot better and a shotgun with slugs is better still.
But long arms are very often NOT what you have on your person when you need to shoot unless you disciple yourself to carry them. Like a soldier in a combat zone, you may forget to put on your shirt before you would forget to take your weapon.
You MUST become a good shooter. Now if you are not going to be able to become a good shooter, it must be admitted that a large caliber and very powerful handgun at touching range is better then nothing and at contact range, you can kill a bear even if you can’t shoot well.
But like wearing a seat belt in a 60 MPH crash, you are not going to come out unharmed.
You may come out alive, but if a bear is close enough to bite you or claw you, life is not going to be enjoyable for a while after.
Buying a gun no more makes you defended than buying guitar makes you into a musician.
LEARN to use the tools well to be a good worker!
semi_problomatic
New member
Depends on person. Like above mentioned, you could have a deathstar .70 cal sooper dooper pistol, but wounding or missing the bear makes that an impressive chew toy for the bear when they get done eating you. Something to clean their teeth with.
Bear spray makes sense, easier to aim, non-lethal, but makes it very uncomfortable for yogi to hang around... Unless yogi is charging with you holding the picnic basket, or the wind is in your face and so is the bear.
All things considered I'd rather have the bear decide it doesn't want to breath this air anymore and go on its merry way to find fresher air; rather than wounding a charging bear and becoming its chew toy. Since its not a perfect world, why not both? .454 casull (so you can train with .45 LC rounds) and a can or two of bear mace. One on each hip and just double fist 'em!! OR make some bullets WITH mace in them!! Or a CO2 powered mace sprayer set up to mount on a rail system... I know you guys can do it, some of you should be working for nasa.
Bear spray makes sense, easier to aim, non-lethal, but makes it very uncomfortable for yogi to hang around... Unless yogi is charging with you holding the picnic basket, or the wind is in your face and so is the bear.
All things considered I'd rather have the bear decide it doesn't want to breath this air anymore and go on its merry way to find fresher air; rather than wounding a charging bear and becoming its chew toy. Since its not a perfect world, why not both? .454 casull (so you can train with .45 LC rounds) and a can or two of bear mace. One on each hip and just double fist 'em!! OR make some bullets WITH mace in them!! Or a CO2 powered mace sprayer set up to mount on a rail system... I know you guys can do it, some of you should be working for nasa.
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This is a big no-no...
I hate to break it to you, but that's the type of thing that people with very little (often none at all) experience with bears says. You absolutely must practice with what you'll carry. I'm not an expert, but I've been around bears of all shapes, sizes, and breeds for a few years now and here's my advice on the subject...
EVERYONE HERE WHO THINKS PISTOLS ARE GOOD FOR BEAR PROTECTION, LISTEN UP
False statement #1: If I buy a .44/.454/.460/.500 Magnum and put a box of rounds through it, I'm set up and ready to protect myself against a bear.
There are those who are proficient enough with large-bore handguns to adequately protect themselves with one. The vast majority of people do not fall into this category. It takes hundreds, even thousands of rounds (full-power, full-bore, not the weak crap on the discount shelf) to become proficient enough to hit a grapefruit-size target running at you at 30 mph, while bouncing and moving. It is very likely that more than one shot will be required to stop the bear, so you'll need to be able to hit it more than once... It is also very doubtful that a bullet fired from a handgun (yes, even the cannons) will penetrate deeply enough to disrupt the central nervous system. They just don't cut it for the majority of situations.
False statement #2: I won't be in grizzly country, so I don't need to worry so much about black bears.
If there were a part of the world with smaller, quicker criminals than the big, powerful (yet still pretty quick) criminals, would you immediately assume that you don't need your .45acp for CCW? Instead, you'll opt for the 9mm or .380, because the criminals are smaller? No, you'd carry the biggest gun you could handle and shoot competently. The same applies in bear country. The notion that different types of bears deserve different sizes of lead pills is illogical. They are all equally deadly. They are all capable of making a human sandwich. They are all warranted the same amount of fear, respect, and caution when you're in their backyard.
False statement #3: I don't need a rifle to protect myself against bears.
Yes, you do. Let's talk about what you're doing here. You're going to be in the backyard of a predator that outweighs the average adult male by 200%-800%.
These animals also demolish steel "bear-proof" dumpsters in a matter of seconds (I've seen it first-hand), so they're a heckuva lot stronger than you.
These animals are a lot faster than you. Given that the human speed record is somewhere around 28mph (and I also assume no one here is an olympic runner) and bears (brown and black) can top out between 30-35mph, you're at a huge speed disadvantage.
Bears are used to fighting, only the kicker is that they're used to fighting each other. Females are used to fighting males to protect their cubs, and males are used to fighting other males for territorial dominance. So they're used to fighting their equals, you are not their equal.
Not to mention, they can smell you and hear you better than the average dog.
Still think you want to put your safety in a handgun that you can't shoot with complete and utter confidence?
The simple truth is that long guns are better for self-defense than handguns. This is pretty much universal fact. Handguns are used for convience vs. long guns. They're simply easier to carry. However, long guns are easier to shoot under stress and they're far more powerful than even the most powerful of handguns. That is also pretty much universal fact. In a situation as decsribed above, humans need every advantage that firearms offer us, and handguns just don't make the cut.
Just to be clear, you still have to practice a LOT with your chosen long gun, but it will be easier to hit what you're aiming at and the bullet will be much more effective when it gets there in comparison with handguns. I practice with and carry a Marlin 1895STP in .45/70 Gov't. I only buy one type of ammo for it and that is my bear load, I don't practice with cheap junk, I want to fully know and instill the muscle memory for shooting the load I'll be counting on if Yogi gets angry at me.
Be safe and take care, I hope I've been able to help someone with this.
semi_problomatic said:
I hate to break it to you, but that's the type of thing that people with very little (often none at all) experience with bears says. You absolutely must practice with what you'll carry. I'm not an expert, but I've been around bears of all shapes, sizes, and breeds for a few years now and here's my advice on the subject...
EVERYONE HERE WHO THINKS PISTOLS ARE GOOD FOR BEAR PROTECTION, LISTEN UP
False statement #1: If I buy a .44/.454/.460/.500 Magnum and put a box of rounds through it, I'm set up and ready to protect myself against a bear.
There are those who are proficient enough with large-bore handguns to adequately protect themselves with one. The vast majority of people do not fall into this category. It takes hundreds, even thousands of rounds (full-power, full-bore, not the weak crap on the discount shelf) to become proficient enough to hit a grapefruit-size target running at you at 30 mph, while bouncing and moving. It is very likely that more than one shot will be required to stop the bear, so you'll need to be able to hit it more than once... It is also very doubtful that a bullet fired from a handgun (yes, even the cannons) will penetrate deeply enough to disrupt the central nervous system. They just don't cut it for the majority of situations.
False statement #2: I won't be in grizzly country, so I don't need to worry so much about black bears.
If there were a part of the world with smaller, quicker criminals than the big, powerful (yet still pretty quick) criminals, would you immediately assume that you don't need your .45acp for CCW? Instead, you'll opt for the 9mm or .380, because the criminals are smaller? No, you'd carry the biggest gun you could handle and shoot competently. The same applies in bear country. The notion that different types of bears deserve different sizes of lead pills is illogical. They are all equally deadly. They are all capable of making a human sandwich. They are all warranted the same amount of fear, respect, and caution when you're in their backyard.
False statement #3: I don't need a rifle to protect myself against bears.
Yes, you do. Let's talk about what you're doing here. You're going to be in the backyard of a predator that outweighs the average adult male by 200%-800%.
These animals also demolish steel "bear-proof" dumpsters in a matter of seconds (I've seen it first-hand), so they're a heckuva lot stronger than you.
These animals are a lot faster than you. Given that the human speed record is somewhere around 28mph (and I also assume no one here is an olympic runner) and bears (brown and black) can top out between 30-35mph, you're at a huge speed disadvantage.
Bears are used to fighting, only the kicker is that they're used to fighting each other. Females are used to fighting males to protect their cubs, and males are used to fighting other males for territorial dominance. So they're used to fighting their equals, you are not their equal.
Not to mention, they can smell you and hear you better than the average dog.
Still think you want to put your safety in a handgun that you can't shoot with complete and utter confidence?
The simple truth is that long guns are better for self-defense than handguns. This is pretty much universal fact. Handguns are used for convience vs. long guns. They're simply easier to carry. However, long guns are easier to shoot under stress and they're far more powerful than even the most powerful of handguns. That is also pretty much universal fact. In a situation as decsribed above, humans need every advantage that firearms offer us, and handguns just don't make the cut.
Just to be clear, you still have to practice a LOT with your chosen long gun, but it will be easier to hit what you're aiming at and the bullet will be much more effective when it gets there in comparison with handguns. I practice with and carry a Marlin 1895STP in .45/70 Gov't. I only buy one type of ammo for it and that is my bear load, I don't practice with cheap junk, I want to fully know and instill the muscle memory for shooting the load I'll be counting on if Yogi gets angry at me.
Be safe and take care, I hope I've been able to help someone with this.
Bears are large dangerous animals.They are unpredictable and very very fast.Usually you dont see em till they are too close which is close enough for things to go sideways in a hurry.I like to travel in pairs and carry at least a .375 H&H or a 12 gauge with slugs.
I am considering loading .30 black tip A/P bullets on to 20 .308 cases for
DPMS M4. Twenty rapid fire rounds of A/P may be better then one 300 grain shot of .375.
I am considering loading .30 black tip A/P bullets on to 20 .308 cases for
DPMS M4. Twenty rapid fire rounds of A/P may be better then one 300 grain shot of .375.
PIGMAN
Personally, I'd stick to the .375H&H. For no other reason that most bear attacks happen quickly, and the one shot may be all you get. Best to make it the most effective shot that you can.
However, the .308Win, loaded with the proper ammo can be effective. It really boils down to which you can shoot the best.
If one or the other has iron sights or a 1x red-dot type optic, I'd choose it. Magnified riflescopes are not helpful when the bear is close enough to attack.
Personally, I'd stick to the .375H&H. For no other reason that most bear attacks happen quickly, and the one shot may be all you get. Best to make it the most effective shot that you can.
However, the .308Win, loaded with the proper ammo can be effective. It really boils down to which you can shoot the best.
If one or the other has iron sights or a 1x red-dot type optic, I'd choose it. Magnified riflescopes are not helpful when the bear is close enough to attack.
JGcoastie, Not to pick nits, becuase i agree with what you are saying. You need to pratice with what ever gun you carry out there. My thing is, i the 454 on up are proven to kill every animal that walks the earth. Talking the 454 cassul, you have a 400grain bullet traveling 1700fps out of a 7.5 inch barrel. That is right up there with the 45/70. Out of a short barrel - say a ruger alaskan - your going to get around 1300-1400fps, still in the area of the standard pressure 45/70. The 454 will defineatly have enough penetration to do what ever you need it to do.
The problem lies in the fact that it has a lot of recoil. Which goes back what you were saying, you need to practice alot.
I agree that for the lay person a rifle will be better, but saying the 454 doesent have the power to penetrate is like saying a Maclaren isnt fast.
My issue with carrying a rifle is that only works in non park land. Sure in straight up wilderness its ok openly pack a rifle, but try that in any other park were its now legal to keep a gun for protection. You will get harressed/arrested for the rifle, but the handgun will not likely be a problem.
You are correct in saying that rifles are better for selfdefense, but fails to mention that they are impractical for some situations.
Bears are starting to get spotted here in my area of Indiana - mainly smallish black bears. Lets say that i go to polkhagen state park, or matea park out in the county in my area, or Jellystone camp ground up north. Sure I can legaly pack a handgun for bear/large cat defense but a rifle WILL GET ME HARRASED AND OR ARRESTED. PERIOD. Yes id like to pack a rifle for bear/large cat protection but it will only get me introuble despite the fact its Legal.
You cant always have a rifle on you, even if legal it can give you unpleasant run ins with local law.
Back woods, sure pack your rifle, but anyplace else your better off with a handgun just for the lack of legal harrassment your gaurunteed to face when packing a rifle anyplace there are likely to be other people.
The problem lies in the fact that it has a lot of recoil. Which goes back what you were saying, you need to practice alot.
I agree that for the lay person a rifle will be better, but saying the 454 doesent have the power to penetrate is like saying a Maclaren isnt fast.
My issue with carrying a rifle is that only works in non park land. Sure in straight up wilderness its ok openly pack a rifle, but try that in any other park were its now legal to keep a gun for protection. You will get harressed/arrested for the rifle, but the handgun will not likely be a problem.
You are correct in saying that rifles are better for selfdefense, but fails to mention that they are impractical for some situations.
Bears are starting to get spotted here in my area of Indiana - mainly smallish black bears. Lets say that i go to polkhagen state park, or matea park out in the county in my area, or Jellystone camp ground up north. Sure I can legaly pack a handgun for bear/large cat defense but a rifle WILL GET ME HARRASED AND OR ARRESTED. PERIOD. Yes id like to pack a rifle for bear/large cat protection but it will only get me introuble despite the fact its Legal.
You cant always have a rifle on you, even if legal it can give you unpleasant run ins with local law.
Back woods, sure pack your rifle, but anyplace else your better off with a handgun just for the lack of legal harrassment your gaurunteed to face when packing a rifle anyplace there are likely to be other people.
Mordis, I hear what you're saying and I completely understand about the legal issues is certain areas. Handguns are a compromise, whether for convenience or for legal reasons.
.454 Casull
DoubleTap 400gr WFNGC
(This is the only 400gr factory load I could find for this cartridge)
Ballistics : 1400fps - 1741 ft./lbs. - 7.5" bbl.
1125fps from a Ruger Alaskan 2.5" bbl
1675fps from a Puma 92 20" bbl. (Even a 20" barrel doesn't reach the 1700fps you claimed out of a 7.5")
Hornady Custom 300gr XTP
Muzzle Velocity: 1650fps
Muzzle Energy: 1813ft./lbs
.45/70 Gov't
DoubleTap 400gr WFNGC
Ballistics : 1810fps - 2914 ft./lbs. - 22.0" bbl. Marlin
The .454 is not in the same class as the .45/70... It gets close, but no cigar.
Hornady LEVERevolution 325gr Flex Tip (the load that I use for bear defense)
Muzzle Velocity: 2050fps
Muzzle Energy: 3032ft./lbs
.45/70 Government > .454 Casull
EDIT: Added a couple loads and provided sources.
The information you posted regarding the .454 Casull's ballistics seems a bit on the optimistic side though... Here's a couple loads I looked up for comparison...
.454 Casull
DoubleTap 400gr WFNGC
(This is the only 400gr factory load I could find for this cartridge)
Ballistics : 1400fps - 1741 ft./lbs. - 7.5" bbl.
1125fps from a Ruger Alaskan 2.5" bbl
1675fps from a Puma 92 20" bbl. (Even a 20" barrel doesn't reach the 1700fps you claimed out of a 7.5")
Hornady Custom 300gr XTP
Muzzle Velocity: 1650fps
Muzzle Energy: 1813ft./lbs
.45/70 Gov't
DoubleTap 400gr WFNGC
Ballistics : 1810fps - 2914 ft./lbs. - 22.0" bbl. Marlin
The .454 is not in the same class as the .45/70... It gets close, but no cigar.
Hornady LEVERevolution 325gr Flex Tip (the load that I use for bear defense)
Muzzle Velocity: 2050fps
Muzzle Energy: 3032ft./lbs
.45/70 Government > .454 Casull
EDIT: Added a couple loads and provided sources.
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semi_problomatic
New member
.454 casull - 52 ounces
Marlin 1895 - 120 ounces
Weapon length, weight, carry ability means a weapon that won't be left at home or in the truck when you go out. Its great to have a rifle with super accurate white tail rounds sitting in your truck while you get mauled by yogi.
Reduced recoil of .45 LC means that it will actually be practiced with compared to a rifle that bruises your shoulder every time you put a box of rounds through it. And everyone knows, practice makes perfect.
I can get 50 .45 LC rounds for under $20. It cost over $30 for 20 45-70 rounds... You do the math there. And everyone knows practice makes perfect.
So sure, the 45-70 RIFLE has better ballistics that the .454 PISTOL.... But the pistol will still do a fine job of killing dangerous game, as has been proven; its easier to carry, cheaper to train with, and you can still use your arm the next day.
But I still stick with bear spray being #1. And they even make shotgun rounds that have bear spray in them. Don't know where or if you can buy them... But wouldn't that be fun to have?
Marlin 1895 - 120 ounces
Weapon length, weight, carry ability means a weapon that won't be left at home or in the truck when you go out. Its great to have a rifle with super accurate white tail rounds sitting in your truck while you get mauled by yogi.
Reduced recoil of .45 LC means that it will actually be practiced with compared to a rifle that bruises your shoulder every time you put a box of rounds through it. And everyone knows, practice makes perfect.
I can get 50 .45 LC rounds for under $20. It cost over $30 for 20 45-70 rounds... You do the math there. And everyone knows practice makes perfect.
So sure, the 45-70 RIFLE has better ballistics that the .454 PISTOL.... But the pistol will still do a fine job of killing dangerous game, as has been proven; its easier to carry, cheaper to train with, and you can still use your arm the next day.
But I still stick with bear spray being #1. And they even make shotgun rounds that have bear spray in them. Don't know where or if you can buy them... But wouldn't that be fun to have?
I never said that there weren't drawbacks to carrying a rifle. There are. They are a bit more cumbersome and require a bit more attention to how you carry them in comparison to handguns. To be fair, my 1895 recoils no more than my .308 Win. It's a well designed stock with a good recoil pad.
The cost factor is not a factor with a lot of people. Like most people who are very, very serious about shooting/hunting/SD, I reload. I can reload premium .45/70 cheaper than you can buy .454. I choose to buy my .45/70 ammo because I can, not because I have to.
If you're counting on any handgun against a large bear, you're taking a chance. I don't like taking chances and if the bear is charging, not a mock charge, but a real one (you do know how to tell the difference right?); I want the bear down and out as quickly as possible. A handgun does not even the odds, but to be fair, neither does a rifle... Though it increases your odds nonetheless.
It's a personal decision, just like everything else is. This is just one man's opinion, so put as much or as little stock in it as you wish. But keep in mind that just about every Alaskan on this board will agree with me to the letter (along with every professional guide I have met in AK).
The cost factor is not a factor with a lot of people. Like most people who are very, very serious about shooting/hunting/SD, I reload. I can reload premium .45/70 cheaper than you can buy .454. I choose to buy my .45/70 ammo because I can, not because I have to.
If you're counting on any handgun against a large bear, you're taking a chance. I don't like taking chances and if the bear is charging, not a mock charge, but a real one (you do know how to tell the difference right?); I want the bear down and out as quickly as possible. A handgun does not even the odds, but to be fair, neither does a rifle... Though it increases your odds nonetheless.
It's a personal decision, just like everything else is. This is just one man's opinion, so put as much or as little stock in it as you wish. But keep in mind that just about every Alaskan on this board will agree with me to the letter (along with every professional guide I have met in AK).
And you should know that my post detailing the ballistics of .454 vs .45/70 is in direct response to Mordis' post which stated that the .454 was near equal in performance to the .45/70. That argument doesn't hold water.
Here's a true story that you may want to consider...
An associate of mine is a guide here in Kodiak. He was guiding a client on the south-west side of the island, near Old Harbor. His client was hunting with a S&W .500 magnum with the long barrel (10"??). They saw a good shooter male, he judged it to be just under 9 feet in length. The client took his shot at the bear which was standing broadside in a stream. My friend (the guide) saw the impact of the bullet into the bear's side, square in the middle of the lungs. The bear turned and looked at them. The client took a second shot, a third, a fourth, and a fifth shot. Meanwhile, the bear is starting to run towards them. They backed up further off the bank and my friend took aim with his guide gun (you guess it, .45/70) right about where he figured the bear would crest the bank. He put one shot directly into the bear's nose and it never took another step. The bullet penetrated through the bear's nose and face, exited at the back and bottom of the jaw, penetrated through the neck, throat, and spine and left a baseball-sized hole at the back of the neck.
All five of the client's bullets went into the bear, commendable marksmanship under the circumstances, however, none penetrated more than 10". All five bullets were recovered. They were mangled, misshapen, and deformed. They contacted bone and after that, they basically went to crap.
I trust my .45/70 and nothing else when it comes to bear defense.
Here's a true story that you may want to consider...
An associate of mine is a guide here in Kodiak. He was guiding a client on the south-west side of the island, near Old Harbor. His client was hunting with a S&W .500 magnum with the long barrel (10"??). They saw a good shooter male, he judged it to be just under 9 feet in length. The client took his shot at the bear which was standing broadside in a stream. My friend (the guide) saw the impact of the bullet into the bear's side, square in the middle of the lungs. The bear turned and looked at them. The client took a second shot, a third, a fourth, and a fifth shot. Meanwhile, the bear is starting to run towards them. They backed up further off the bank and my friend took aim with his guide gun (you guess it, .45/70) right about where he figured the bear would crest the bank. He put one shot directly into the bear's nose and it never took another step. The bullet penetrated through the bear's nose and face, exited at the back and bottom of the jaw, penetrated through the neck, throat, and spine and left a baseball-sized hole at the back of the neck.
All five of the client's bullets went into the bear, commendable marksmanship under the circumstances, however, none penetrated more than 10". All five bullets were recovered. They were mangled, misshapen, and deformed. They contacted bone and after that, they basically went to crap.
I trust my .45/70 and nothing else when it comes to bear defense.
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
jgcoastie, that sounds like a design problem. I don't figure that expansion is the deal with large-diameter handgun bullets. Rather, penetration and a comparatively large tunnel-type wound. Seyfried has spoken against jacketed hollow points, preferring large-meplat lead. (Worked on one-ton Australian buffalo.) I haven't checked to see whether or not anybody offers a large-meplat, copper-jacketed bullet which would be less likely to deform.
semi_problomatic
New member
Well my 1895GS kicks WAY MORE than my .308. I can shoot 40+ .308 rounds and not even think about it. I shoot about a box of those 325 gr hornady's and I'm black and blue for a couple days. If I move up to those big 525 gr... Well I shoot a lot less of those at a time.
I think you're skewing the view here a bit. While being a fantastic gun, the 45-70 is probably a bad choice for an older man who travels a lot. A can of bear spray and maybe a high powered weapon (pistol) to back it up is probably his best option, especially since I think he's staying in the lower 48, not going against Kodiaks.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/08/31/man-kills-charging-bear-with-454-casull/
This isn't as cool as a "my buddy" story. But it is a bit more objective.
I'm not sure how anyone could say the cost factor is not really a factor with a lot of people, with a straight face. Maybe a used car salesman could, I dunno. Just seems like going out on a limb.
And as for your story, while being nice, again skews reality a bit. Using 300gr hollow points out of a handi-rifle may just give you the same results, and its a 45-70. Too many facts missing. And a guide getting a headshot compared to a client with some bad broadside shots...go figure.
We agree on a lot of things; it takes a lot of training to become proficient, reloading is fun, and the 45-70 is a great gun. But its not magic, its not going to be able to go everywhere the OP's dad goes, so therefore it is next to useless, and since he's not hunting bears, but just happens to occupy the same areas they like, I doubt he'll have to try for a kill shot with a wounded charging kodiak.
Oh yeah, just a bit more info on me; my experience with bears is limited. The last time I saw one that wasn't behind some piece of glass was up in Ft. Lewis, WA. We were doing a ruck march, probably an 8 or 10 miler. My team and I rounded the corner on this hmmwv trail and there it was, some big brown COLORED bear (which looks worse when you have no weapon, a heavy ruck, and you're half-way around the SGM's loop) we all came to a dead stop. Did the whole "Is THAT what I FREAKING think it is?!?" and then backed away slowly, rounded the bend and added a mile or so to our trip. Bear didn't charge, didn't even really move, which was pretty lucky cause I didn't want to have to trip a buddy....and none of us were eaten.
I think you're skewing the view here a bit. While being a fantastic gun, the 45-70 is probably a bad choice for an older man who travels a lot. A can of bear spray and maybe a high powered weapon (pistol) to back it up is probably his best option, especially since I think he's staying in the lower 48, not going against Kodiaks.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/08/31/man-kills-charging-bear-with-454-casull/
This isn't as cool as a "my buddy" story. But it is a bit more objective.
I'm not sure how anyone could say the cost factor is not really a factor with a lot of people, with a straight face. Maybe a used car salesman could, I dunno. Just seems like going out on a limb.
And as for your story, while being nice, again skews reality a bit. Using 300gr hollow points out of a handi-rifle may just give you the same results, and its a 45-70. Too many facts missing. And a guide getting a headshot compared to a client with some bad broadside shots...go figure.
We agree on a lot of things; it takes a lot of training to become proficient, reloading is fun, and the 45-70 is a great gun. But its not magic, its not going to be able to go everywhere the OP's dad goes, so therefore it is next to useless, and since he's not hunting bears, but just happens to occupy the same areas they like, I doubt he'll have to try for a kill shot with a wounded charging kodiak.
Oh yeah, just a bit more info on me; my experience with bears is limited. The last time I saw one that wasn't behind some piece of glass was up in Ft. Lewis, WA. We were doing a ruck march, probably an 8 or 10 miler. My team and I rounded the corner on this hmmwv trail and there it was, some big brown COLORED bear (which looks worse when you have no weapon, a heavy ruck, and you're half-way around the SGM's loop) we all came to a dead stop. Did the whole "Is THAT what I FREAKING think it is?!?" and then backed away slowly, rounded the bend and added a mile or so to our trip. Bear didn't charge, didn't even really move, which was pretty lucky cause I didn't want to have to trip a buddy....and none of us were eaten.
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