NOT Gun Control

The gist I got from this thread is that LE is failing the current background check system either by not following up on complaints or not diving deep enough. So, what is the fix? More funding to LE? State agencies devoted to nothing but background checks and complaints?
 
Please do some research on the cost and brevity of background checks available commercially.

You keep arguing over the feasibility of the project when you haven't yet explained how the project helps identify a prohibited person in a way the current system doesn't. Give me an example of how the system you use at work better identifies a prohibited person compared to NICS.
 
Most of the shooters were NOT prohibited persons. They were friggin nut jobs.

#1 - Technology that flags publicly available social media activity; feeds info to a human for review; in the event of red flags, info is forwarded to local LE for deeper dive and/or informs local LE. Extended time period to have the above work through the process.

#2 - We have FICO scores for credit, why not have a similar score for "community standing"? You get a complaint and a visit by police to your home, -CS score; get a DUI, -CS score; volunteer at homeless shelter +CS score; pay your bills on time +CS; BTW, all of this is PUBLIC info - some public records, some on social media.

Not saying that the preceding would prevent anyone from purchasing a gun, just a flag for additional info.

BTW, face to face gun transactions (private sales) need to go through some type of background check. I know for a fact that many of the folks here believe that, if not only as CYA measure or personal peace of mind. Nine States already have some type of BC's for private sales.
 
The gist I got from this thread is that LE is failing the current background check system either by not following up on complaints or not diving deep enough. So, what is the fix? More funding to LE? State agencies devoted to nothing but background checks and complaints?

The ways in which the current background check fails are legion.

The VA Tech shooter was adjudicated mentally defiective in a Virginia state court and diverted into a treatment program. However, different federal courts and the state of Virginia all disagree on what the definition "adjudicated mentally deficient" means. So, the state did not report him to NICS; because under state law, he was not a prohibited person, though he might have been under federal law and was under the definition ATF used.

The "Trainwreck" shooter was a flat-out prohibited person by every measure of state and federal law. The state simply never reported his conviction to NICS - which by the way, the states are under no legal obligation to do.

The Sutherland Springs shooter was also not reported to NICS, even though as a federal agency, the DoD was under a legal obligation to do so.

In this case, the cops of been out to the house 39 times - including where the shooter assaulted his mother with a vacuum cleaner. Misdemeanor domestic violence convictions make you a prohibited person. And it looks like there were a few chances to bring those kinds of charges against this shooter. For whatever reason, it looks like those charges were not brought, or not prosecuted, or not reported to NICS if charged and prosecuted (possibly because of juvenile privacy laws which also prevent some offenses from being reported to NICS).

And of course, when NICS does stop someone from purchasing a firearm, we do nothing at all to stop them from trying again. In 2010, NICS referred 76,142 denials to ATF. ATF referred 4,732 of those denials to field offices for investigation. Of those, 509 were not prohibited people. For various reasons, 1,923 cases were further investigated and 62 cases were referred for prosecution.

In addition to the low rate of investigating denials, NICS wrongly approved 1,923 purchases (that ATF followed up on anyway) and ATF retrieved 1,164 firearms in connection.

Of the 62 cases referred for prosecution: 18 were declined by a prosecutor, 13 were dismissed via plea agreement, 13 pled guilty and 12 were still pending when the study was published.

76,142 denials. 1,164 firearms retrieved. 26 guilty pleas.

Source: https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/bjs/grants/239272.pdf

That's 62 cases brought out of 76,142 denials. Expanding background checks to private sales doesn't promise to change any of that. It is just going to be 62 cases out of xxx,xxx denials. In the meantime, about 40% of the people who NICS wrongly approved for firearms purchase and got assigned an ATF investigation, kept the firearm and appear not to have been prosecuted either.
 
Onward Allusion said:
Most of the shooters were NOT prohibited persons. They were friggin nut jobs.

So, are you saying they should have been taken into a court, adjudicated mentally defective by a judge and added to NICS as a prohibited person? Or are you saying that the category of prohibited people should be expanded based on the criteria you outlined?

BTW, face to face gun transactions (private sales) need to go through some type of background check.

No, they don't. But if you believe they do, you'd do your best to focus on addressing gun owners' very justified privacy concerns about that data being used for confiscation. Because that's the rock that is going to sink any attempt at more background checks.
 
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I'm saying the red flags should have delayed the approval process to have an additional review performed. Upon additional review (whatever it may be - probably will require interviews with people - dunno), if warranted, the individual should be taken to court. I am for due process.

I personally think that in some of the previous cases, the process would have been a wake-up call to the nut job. Sometimes that's all that's needed; a visit from LE and being scrutinized. Sometimes, not.
 
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I'm saying the red flags should have delayed the approval process for additional review. Upon additional review (whatever it may be - probably will require interviews with people - dunno), if warranted, the individual should be take to court. I am for due process.

As it currently works, NICS is just an up-down system. You fill out a form 4473. If your state uses the NICS system and not their own state system, AND you do not have a NICS-compliant CHL, your identifying information is compared to the NICS database. If you are in there, you are denied. If you aren't, you get passed.

If it looks like it might be you in there; but maybe it is someone else - or the information reported to NICS is inconclusive "misdemeanor assault conviction" that might or might not be disqualifying domestic violence, you get delayed for three days. All NICS will do then is ask the reporting agency to clarify. If the reporting agency doesn't clarify for whatever reason within three days, you can purchase the firearm.

There is currently no mechanism to report "this guy is crazy as a loon; but not a prohibited person." That has to be done long before NICS gets involved. There were plenty of opportunities to do that here. They just weren't done. Likely because no prosecutor or cop wanted to give the electronic mark of Cain to a young teenager making stupid decisions and forever effect his future opportunities.

As you can see, the ATF barely manages to investigate NICS denials. The FBI runs NICS with even fewer resources. Having them do the kinds of follow-ups you suggest once the NICS process is initiated seems impractical even if you think the general idea is valid.
 
Wow, I've been called many things before but never a gun control advocate.

And this is why nothing is done...and this is probably why the only thing thats ever going to pass is going to be drastic. You think budging an inch means giving up everything. I think not budging is going to lead to one drastic measure. The division in our nation is just begging for it.

Our nation of people on the right and left are so extreme that they only present extreme options. We have these lables, right, left, dem, republican, liberal, conservative, etc....Can't someone just be out there to solve problems? Trump claimed he was going to drain the swamp and I was super excited by this message however all I see are lobbyists in washington (trump has multiple working for him right now - so yea great swamp draining). We need to boot everyone, get rid of these parties, and work together to find solutions to each problem. Stop labeling yourself as right or left. Stop calling people right or left. That is just part of the problem - we aren't on sides.

Now, do we need gun control? Who knows. I think any kind of mental health screen, training, etc could of probably stopped this one incident. Heck 20 things could of stopped this, especially the FBI. I don't think any could of stopped the guy in vegas though. People are crazy and we can't really stop crazy except when someone is clearly crazy we shouldn't be giving them access to firearms. I mean we have people identified by the FBI as ISIS sympathisers and they can buy guns perfectly fine. So we do have some issues. I am not sure how anyone could argue otherwise.
 
Onward Allusion said:
I am for fixing our current background check system and we agree to disagree.
The current system can be "fixed" without making ANY changes in the laws. All that's required is for people to do their jobs. Look at recent mass shootings. How many involve failures of "the system" to flag people who should not have had guns?

  • Fort Hood - the Jihadist Major had sent messages to the FBI that should have flagged him as a terrorist threat. No action.
  • The Texas church massacre - The shooter should have been prohibited from buying guns, but the Air Force didn't report him to NICS so he passed multiple background checks.
  • The Pulse Club - the shooter was investigated by the FBI more than once, yet they decided he wasn't a threat.
  • Dylan Roof, the other recent church shooter - also should have been prohibited from buying guns, but somebody didn't do their job and he sailed through NICS.

There are more: https://www.westernjournal.com/list-attackers-fbi-warned-still-failed-stop/?utm

Before you start trying to expand the system, maybe you should focus on fixing the system we already have.
 
Bit by bit we have been having our rights slowly taken away. We all know the saying,"if gun laws worked, Chicago would be a safe haven". Truth of the matter, as long as we look towards the government to provide for our safety, we will always have to give up rights. Sad to say, but giving up rights does not make anyone safer. Gun free zones only take away YOUR right to defend yourself and others. What were we thinking when we made places "gun free" and expected criminals to obey? As a society we go into businesses with our children and PEOPLE ARE ARMED and nobody goes crazy, there is no panic from knowing people have guns on them. So why are there gun free zones? Want to solve the problem, how about we stop talking about taking away rights and start talking about giving them back. I have no problem with teachers or coaches being armed. If we trust them with our children and grandchildren, then we should be able to trust them with defending them and their self.
 
What prevents someone-the Government, e.g.-constantly lowering the bar as to what disqualifies one from firearms ownership-think of the Lautenberg Amendment. Or perhaps the girlfiriend you just dumped-or the now ex-wife accuses you of abuse. Remember, it's just her word...Kids running off at the mouth on social media ? What happend to free speech. Are we now free to only say approved things ?
"Ghost gun" ? To me that's the revolver registered to your long gone Great Uncle Fred, the one you inherited from your grandfather, the one you bought from the widow, the one you built in your basement during that long miserable winter reading "those books"-the M-16 you found on a military base, perhaps when you in the National Guard and had enough sense to keep quiet about. (The one you liberated from the smart aleck who always gave you lip and a hard time.)
 
"
Bit by bit we have been having our rights slowly taken away."
How so? Concealed carry laws have been loosened. Colorado wasted time legislating limits on magazine capacity. That was not smart. But the general statement about gun rights being impinged is difficult to validate. I would like to see how gun rights have been eroded.

Statement about kids dying in cars is true, but ignores the fact the many regulations and laws have improved automobile safety. Child car seat regulations are very strict, and as data provides opportunity to improve child safety in cars, laws are updated.

Improved and more detailed background checks, improved communication between agencies, and better coordination between states are things that I think could help decrease wing dings access to guns.
 
The social security administration, during the Obama years, passed a regulation that if someone was on social security and they appointed another person to handle their financial matters they could (and were) reported to the NICS as being mentally incompetent to own a gun. This was without any due process of law, the person might not have been notified, there was no legal process to find out why the person transferred the financial ability to a third person.

While this is closer to reality than what the press generally reported, its still not quite accurate. In a nutshell, the Obama administration ordered the SSA (and other agencies) to report "mentally incompetent" people to NICS, which they did. NICS then placed them on the prohibited list. Sounds simple, and correct, but it wasn't.

It wasn't correct, because of the differing definitions of "mentally incompetent" used by different federal agencies. SSA did not, and does not have the authority to rule a person mentally incompetent for anything OTHER than receiving SSA benefits. This is NOT the same as the legal standard that governs possession of firearms.

NICS has, literally, only one box to put people in, if they are reported as mentally incompetent, and that is the prohibited person box. NICS does not, and cannot investigate the data it is given, to verify its accuracy. If they are given bad data (which they were) you get a bad result.

As to expanded, indepth background checks being the fix for mass shootings, or even just a "first step", I just don't see it.

Background checks have been sold to the public as the solution, one which will work, if only we dig deep enough into peoples pasts, and do a thorough enough job at it.

It is, sadly, a lie. But one too many people are all too willing to believe.

The first point against the claim that background checks will keep guns out of the hands of the crazies is that no background check can filter out someone who is not in the system. Period.

The next point is that the argument assumes that we (the potential crazies), are all first time gun buyers. AND that we would all use only legal means to get a gun. And, that if our intent is to break the highest moral laws (by committing murder), that we would be stopped by an NCIS check.

IF a person already has a gun, (or a dozen) what could an NCIS denial do to stop them from committing mayhem & murder? Nothing.

Another point, this one against the inclusion of social history, not just criminal history in determining prohibited person status.

We have legal standards, which, if not met, mean that no matter how weird, creepy, disgusting or dangerous seeming in your personal life, you cannot legally be denied your rights.

#2 - We have FICO scores for credit, why not have a similar score for "community standing"? You get a complaint and a visit by police to your home, -CS score; get a DUI, -CS score; volunteer at homeless shelter +CS score; pay your bills on time +CS; BTW, all of this is PUBLIC info - some public records, some on social media.

This is so scary, its almost comical. The potential for abuse is tremendous. And just who would get all this information, and rate people??

Police visit to your home, you lose points? ok, any chance you would take into account WHY the police visited my home?? I doubt it. Most likely is just an arbitrary loss of points because there is a record of the visit, with nothing else taken into account.

Here's just one tiny example,
Do you know what a foundered horse is?
Basically the horse gets sick from eating too much of the wrong stuff, and it can die.
The treatment is to pen up the horse, and put it on a strict diet, until it recovers (if it does).

We had that happen, and the pen could be seen from the road. Someone who drove by regularly felt we were mistreating the horse (based on what they could see as they drove by) and called the sheriff. A deputy came by to check out the complaint. Once they learned the situation, they were satisfied we were not mistreating the horse, and left.

This happened about 4 times over the couple months we had the horse penned. Same complaint, from the same person. Each time a deputy had to come out and check. Because of the rotation, each time it was a different deputy, but eventually they all knew what was going on, and stopped responding to the inaccurate complaint.

Under your community standing score system, would I get 4 demerits because of 4 police visits??? When I had done nothing wrong?

And just how could you use such a score system, to meet actual legal standards to determine "suitability" for firearms possession?? And, who would do that, under the law??

Zum Befehl, Herr Obergruppenfuehrer!!

:eek::rolleyes:
 
#2 - We have FICO scores for credit, why not have a similar score for "community standing"? You get a complaint and a visit by police to your home, -CS score; get a DUI, -CS score; volunteer at homeless shelter +CS score; pay your bills on time +CS; BTW, all of this is PUBLIC info - some public records, some on social media.
This is so scary, its almost comical. The potential for abuse is tremendous. And just who would get all this information, and rate people??

No german came to mind for me. My reaction was in english, more or less.

Someone might have a good citizen score until being reported by a goodplus citizen to the Ministry of Virtue. Most ungood reports only lose a citizen a few points, but doubleunplusgood reports get you an appointment with someone from the Ministry of Health. Also, checking your own citizen score, an act of ungood mistrust, reduces the score.

All this on the infinitesimally small chance that Winston Smith will commit murder in a school.
 
I see gun free zones as one example of giving up rights in order to gain the illusion of safety. There are also several states which do not allow the freedoms that we enjoy in Colorado and Texas, where some of the old bans are still in effect. Take a good look at Chicago and their laws to see where gun freedom is still suppressed. I also fail to see how having the law abiding citizen jump though more legal checks and background check would have prevented anything. However, had the F.B.I done it job, this probably would have not happened.


By the way, no idea what the statement about the car seats is about, I said nothing about it. If you are saying we need the government to tell us to buckle our kids up as a case for government intrusion being a positive, well to each his own.
 
44 AMP I like your analogy

We are county rural for last 23 years...all sorts of reasons Sheriffs deputies have been to my home

Errant call from neighbor of a fire...wrong house...mine was not a blaze
Dogs barking...wild pack in the neighbor hood...mine were all sound asleep in our big bed
Random explosions.... not me or my kids....other neighbors blowing up left over fire works late at night

I shot a possum at 2 pm... to shut up my dog...yep sheriff deputy came out

Suspected Burglary at a neighbor... came by to interview me and see if I saw anything

Bad guy chased onto my property to escape by a neighbor...yep another visit to see if I knew anything

Daughters boy friend pissed she dumped him.. he entered and trashed her car...yep sheriffs report

ON and on... probably 20 times I have helped or been interviewed by local dept...

How many demerits did I accumulate?

Do I get good guy points for the few times I alerted the Sharif to a suspected meth lab, bad accident, fire, suspicious person, robbery in progress, calf on road, horse on road, copper thief, on and on in my short 63 years

Never been arrested ever...never even cuffed....in fact I have never been in a police or sheriffs "interview room" always on the scene or my home...invited so many in for coffee while they asked questions to help- with some report

BUT the big kicker.... I was a soldier for 23 years with good clearances and a righteous American in all aspects.. I decide to grow long hair and get a few tattoos

I also bought a few desired sports cars... and Harley motorcycles---Texas state patrol figured I fit a "profile"

Truth is I did...

Yes real aggravating occasionally to be pulled over and demanded a search of my vehicle......

Each case I politely asked the trooper to have a sergeant or any other witness present so I could reasonably be assured YOU do not plant evidence in my vehicle

Twice I had to wait for the dogs (hours) and any warrant...nothing ever found...and no apology

For the record I do believe in "profiling" and ultimately as the police, sheriff's, and state patrol came to know me...I got hassled a lot less and even made a few friends of some of the older Troopers

I have met the very best of public servants and some of the arrogant a holes

To this day I do NOT lock step believe they are LEO ALL good righteous perfect law enforcement people... but I do understand human behavior and some of their biases

I am always polite and some what assertive...

any scheme that seeks to grade me on LEO contact is a non starter IMO
 
Social media is a scam, as we all know. On another board I said that our privacy was more in danger from Facebook than from an expanded NCIS.

But the OP made me think. Social media takes our private information and using sophisticated algorithms to comb through that data and tailor it for the customers willing to buy it.
In the US this is perfectly legal as opposed to Belgium for example.
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/..._belgian_folks_or_face_fines_of_250000_a_day/

There are problems when government demands or requests information from scial media.
http://www.businessinsider.com/how-government-gets-data-from-facebook-google-2013-6

But that is the same information that these companies willingly sell on the open market.
So could the government buy information that has been filtered to find potential mass shooters? Could they be just another Facebook customer?

I suspect a lot of people will reply with slippery slope arguments about what happens to the information after the government gets it. But if you would also address what happens before the slope gets slick.
 
- Banning 80% kits from being sold w/o a background check. Sure, you want a ghost gun, you can have a ghost gun but not w/o a background check. You want to see if you can actually "build" a gun, go for it, but not w/o a background check.

The whole point of a "ghost gun" is that there is no background check. If it's reported,
checked, or bought thru a FFL, it's not a ghost gun.


This system of ours isn't going to get fixed. They want to have a heavy police presence, like they do now. They want every possible excuse to cause banning
and confiscation of guns. If they didn't, they would have been dealing with the crazies since way back when that nut-ball tried to kill President Reagan .
 
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Yes. I know #2 is scary as hell. Unfortunately it is already being done at the consumer side. It's just that the guberment is too behind the times, currently. I don't agree or believe in such a scale but you did ask for a concrete idea. Concrete but damn scary from a gun owner, eh? Imagine what the other side is thinking.
 
So could the government buy information that has been filtered to find potential mass shooters? Could they be just another Facebook customer?

The government is already a consumer of data compiled by outside commercial agencies. I don't think they are using it to filter mass shooters; but they certainly use it to assist in investigations and screen possible employees. For what it's worth, people still slip through that system.
 
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