NOT Gun Control

What I meant is that folks expect a good guy with a gun to always carry the day as in the opinion pieces arguing the SRO's failure negates the concept. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

The Sutherland gentleman with an AR who helped stop the rampage killer seems to have been forgotten.
 
rwilson452 said:
To my way of thinking you need two things to be effective in an active shooter situation in school. Marksmanship and mind set.
For someone like an armed teacher to just pin the shooter down until the trained officers arrive, IMHO your statement could be restated as: "To my way of thinking you need two things to be effective in an active shooter situation in school. A gun, and mind set."

Several years ago there was an active shooter in a mall in Utah (Trolley Square, I think). The shooter was diverted from his intended course by a lone off-duty police officer from another jurisdiction, who was armed with a Kimber compact 1911 that only held six (seven? 6+1?) shots. He didn't take the shooter out, but he was able to pin the shooter down until the cavalry arrived. And that's all that's required. It isn't necessary for the armed teacher (or even the first police officer in the door) to prevail, if "prevail" means to disable or kill the shooter. All that's needed to save student lives is to slow the shooter down, to make him stop shooting and start thinking about finding cover to save his own ass.

Plus, the statistics are that in a majority of mass shooting situations the shooter kills himself as soon as he starts taking fire. Again, the good guy doesn't even need to score a hit, just make the shooter aware that there's an armed opponent in front of him.

Lastly, color me unmanly or ungentlemanly but in the case of a school shooter I don't think Marquis of Queensbury rules need apply. If there are multiple armed teachers, I would have no problem with one of them taking out the shooter from behind. Nobody is asking teachers to make a frontal assault -- although that's exactly what the coach did, and he wasn't armed.
 
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In some ways you've gotta love how any (and every?) sensible idea is taken to extremes, and how unless it can be perfect at those extremes, its not acceptable.

The idea that removing the legal barriers to allow teachers to have their own personal firearms with them, in school, so that, if they choose, they have something other than empty hands to fight back with becomes "arming teachers".

The did the same thing with pilots, after 9/11. It wasn't good enough that the pilot, in whose hands hundreds of lives were placed, daily, could be trusted to use their own judgement. Oh no, not good enough. What was "good enough?" to satisfy the objectors??

Allowing those pilots, who chose to, to attend a multi-day (two weeks???) training course, located in one place in the country (and remote from nearly everyone who would be taking it), requiring taking time off from work, paying for the training, and living expenses while training, all out of the pilot's personal pocket, only that came close to satisfying those who objected. And even that wasn't enough, in addition to that, rules were put in place requiring the loaded gun to be stored in a fixture that (as another poster pointed out) used a cable lock through the trigger guard, AND required the gun to be taken out, checked and put back in the box over an over during the course of daily flight operations.

If you set out to create a storage system deliberately designed to be dangerous and to discourage anyone from actually taking the only approved training course, it would be a challenge to surpass what we actually wound up with.

TRAINING is a word much in use now, so many people are scared of the idea of a gun (anywhere) unless the owner has training. But no one seems to know what training is acceptable. And, they are also falling for the lie that training makes everyone safe, accurate, and effective, and 100% of the time.

It does not.

You want training, so an armed teacher (or any individual) can shoot the bad guy, and only the bad guy. A noble goal. Now, wake up, get some coffee, and look at the real world.

Cops, who, arguably are the best trained people most likely to be met, and who are actually required to practice once in a while, miss the bad guy, and do hit innocent bystanders, all too often. (and yes, even once it too often, but again, its not a perfect world. If it were, the issue wouldn't even exist)

I'm not against training, Every one of us has had to learn how to use literally, every single thing in our lives. What I'm against is some third party standard, requiring XX hours of training, (and often only from approved suppliers, verified by some piece of paper) combined with the bedrock belief that without that, you are incompetent with a firearm.

And, because you are assumed incompetent, you are a constant danger to everyone one around. That's why they don't want teacher's able to be armed. They assess the risk of harm from an accident (due to the incompetence of the teacher) to be greater than the risk of harm from an actual attack. They aren't wrong to be concerned, there are careless people, but I think they take that concern to foolish extremes, and put everyone in that category, unless they have proof of (acceptable) training, or a badge and a uniform.

The real world shows us that while proper training increases the odds of success, it does not guarantee success, just as little or no training does not guarantee failure.

My point in this case is that, even if teachers and staff are allowed to carry, with approved training, the objectors will do everything in their power to see to it that the only approved training is as difficult and costly as they can manage, to discourage as many as possible from taking it. And it will be done under the claim of "safety".

Personally, I think the uncertainty of not knowing if someone at the school is armed would be a greater deterrent than a sign stating there are no guns on the premises. Of course, some are not deterred by anything....

People are being sold a bill of goods, under the false promise of safety. In quite a few different ways. One of them is that we can somehow stop these wackjob spree killers before they become wackjob spree killers.

There is a slim chance that the ones who make public threats can be stopped (or more likely, just delayed), but remember that there are legal standards for what constitutes a credible criminal threat. And, if their social media rantings don't meet that standard, there is no legal action that the police can take.

When the killer doesn't break any laws, until they start shooting people, there is nothing legal to stop them with. Period.
 
Being a retired educator, there is interesting discussion of whether teachers will be required to 'take a bullet' for their students. Should that be in their training?

These are good questions. I think this whole idea of getting teachers to carry is going to bring up a whole host of things we haven't really thought of.

I am a professor at the university level and would love to carry on my campus. I also have little kids in school and wish their was more protection in their schools - bullet proof glass/doors, more security officers, cameras, etc. I was always against gun control too but the more this happens the more I want us to find a way to stop crazy people from acquiring guns so easily. I am not sure what the solutions are but we definitely have to try a number of things.
 
Natekirk said:
That's the thing though. Say we allow teachers the option of carrying in schools. It would have to be mandatory training and very good, extensive training at that for them to be effective should a situation arise. The training (hands on shooting training) would also have to be repeated frequently I believe. What we're talking about is preparing people to have an effective exchange of lethal force around crowds of emotionally charged, scarred people, without harming any non combatants. That's pretty much a worst case scenario, and I'm sure if one was to ask a SWAT officer they would agree.

What I described was the exact same training that law enforcement receives. Any teacher who chose to VOLUNTEER to carry a gun (because I am not for requiring someone personally against it) would be MANDATED to train with law enforcement. Putting on a uniform and badge does not instantly give one power or prowess. It does give one a particular mindset; something that can be either a good thing or bad thing (or even both). I digress. SWAT operators should not be the ones clearing the school and engaging a school shooter. That takes too long. Hold the perimeter and wait for SWAT went out the window with Columbine. Now it's that lowely patrol officer with a few of his partners going in, as it should be. My proposal would have exactly zero difference in training between patrol officers and armed teachers. I'm pretty sure I made that clear in my original post.

Its already being touted as proof that a good guy with a gun isn't always a solution to stop a bad guy with a gun. Its just adding fuel to a fire.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/23/polit...sis/index.html

CNN is being disingenuous in the title of this article. This one, lone example is proof of nothing. Just like Glenn said...

The Sutherland gentleman with an AR who helped stop the rampage killer seems to have been forgotten.

Would it have made last week any worse if Scott Beigel had been armed?

While hypothetical, and we will never know, I suspect fewer people would have died.
 
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Glenn E. Meyer said:
What I meant is that folks expect a good guy with a gun to always carry the day as in the opinion pieces arguing the SRO's failure negates the concept. Sorry if I wasn't clear.
The problem, of course, is that the good guy with a gun can only carry the day if he's there. In this case, the good guy with a gun was NOT there, he was somewhere else. Somewhere safe. He might as well have been in the next county. The usual suspects will say he was "there," but the reality is that he WASN'T "there."
 
If we as individuals were to handle our personal finances in the manner that many states and even our federal government does, we would likely be in jail.
For more than 30 years now, if anything gets on a ballot that is asking for more of my money to fund, my vote is a resounding NO.
I'll not willingly surrender more of what I earn to be wasted.
Start spending what I'm already giving responsibly before I surrender any more willingly.

That is the same principle as should be applied here really.
Enforce the existing laws effectively before imposing more, it really is that simple.

I'm fine with taking most any of the steps outlined over and over in this thread to 'harden' our schools in order to protect all of our children.

What I am not fine with is imposing more laws that do no more than further restrict my rights as an American citizen, when we aren't even willing or able to effectively enforce the thousands of gun laws that we already have.

That's just kind of stupid no matter how you try to look at it or explain it.

What else is pretty stupid is to think that anything we could possibly come up with would be foolproof.
 
Say we allow teachers the option of carrying in schools. It would have to be mandatory training and very good, extensive training at that for them to be effective should a situation arise. The training (hands on shooting training) would also have to be repeated frequently I believe. What we're talking about is preparing people to have an effective exchange of lethal force around crowds of emotionally charged, scarred people, without harming any non combatants.

How about a slightly different approach? Instead of trying to turn those teachers & staff who do volunteer into armed security response agents, how about we just afford them the same consideration we do all the rest of the private citizens who CCW? Just give them the legal ability to carry at school.

They don't need to be swat trained clear the building level response, they just need to be there, and have the capability to fight back, if possible.

Numerous mass shootings have been interrupted by someone fighting back. Most without the killer getting shot, sometimes with out the defender even shooting. Any response other than running away or hiding and hoping not to get shot tends to put these killers off their plan, and often, when that happens, they break off the attack. Some have even killed themselves as police approach.

As far as I'm concerned, anything that disrupts the attack is a success, and worthwhile to at least allow for the attempt. If you really want to have the most effective possible response, put cops at the school. Not just an officer, co-locate a police dept substation there. Something to insure multiple officers are constantly in the vicinity.

Don't expect, and don't try to make an armed civilian citizen (teachers & staff) into police responders. You'll fail in the attempt, if you're even allowed to make it. It's the wrong way to go about it. Just let those who already are CCW (have a license, their own gun, and satisfy the required state level training) to do their thing at school. Don't require them to confront the killer as part of their job, just allow them the armed option. And don't add tons of "required" training as an additional condition, either. There's no point to it, other than to kill the idea.

I say no, to the idea of arming teachers, and expecting them to do the job of the police & swat. I say yes to allowing CCW permitted individuals the same carry on campus as off.
 
How about a slightly different approach? Instead of trying to turn those teachers & staff who do volunteer into armed security response agents, how about we just afford them the same consideration we do all the rest of the private citizens who CCW? Just give them the legal ability to carry at school.

They don't need to be swat trained clear the building level response, they just need to be there, and have the capability to fight back, if possible.
But we are also looking at what it will take to get it passed. I am guessing if we draw up the law by stating there will be some training required for the teacher to carry on the job (don't forget many people do not have that luxury) it will be more acceptable to the parents. I am all in favor of just allowing the teachers to carry if they have a permit, but I am also against ALL gun free zones be it the post office, acoe land or jet airliners. Unfortunately, I believe whatever decision that will be made will be rushed through. We are too close to the midterms for congress to do nothing. Conservatives in congress need to be taking the upper hand here and not leave it up to the gun control crowd or we will see bans and the killings will go on. If our best chance for passage will be required training, so be it. It needs to pass.
 
Didn’t we just have this conversation? The current background check system IS registration. It is based on the de-centralized registry established by the 1968 Gun Control Act. You have repeatedly stated you want to add more records to this system and expand it to all private sales.
There is no federal gun registry. https://www.concealedcarry.com/law/are-guns-registered/
There are some of the States that require some guns to be registered, ex. California
I guess you are talking about those? In Texas, our guns are not registered!
 
s3779 said:
There is no federal gun registry. https://www.concealedcarry.com/law/are-guns-registered/
There are some of the States that require some guns to be registered, ex. California
I guess you are talking about those? In Texas, our guns are not registered!

Not exactly. Just because arms aren't registered centrally doesn't mean they aren't registered.

Bartholomew Roberts' point is that every arm run through an FFL is registered, just not in a centralized registry. If you are a large enough FFL, you've had a call requesting information on who you transferred a specific item to. It's harder than hopping online, typing in S&W SN12345678 and having it spit out William A Smith, 123 Main Str., but LE can trace a line of ownership.
 
One ND, one accidental or unprovoked fatal shooting, one holstered Sig left in a drawer and found by a student, and we would be worse off than ever.

Interesting. I went to high school in the Reagan years, before the Gun Free School Zone act. I knew of at least two teachers who kept guns on hand. I don't recall ever hearing about the scenarios you mention.
 
I think that teachers should be allowed the option.
I think that they should be granted 'good samaritan' immunity if required to use their pistols defensively on school grounds.

I think that the first lesson of Vietnam was "attack the ambush." When only the bad guy has a weapon, things are easy, especially for him. Once he or she starts taking fire, the fog of war settles in and his or her "plan" must adjust to the new situation. I don't see a downside if a shooting event happens at a school where teachers are carrying.
 
Can anyone tell me what the first post was so that I don’t get sucked into reading 12 pages of this?

Anyway I do trust the judgment of the average American. I don’t think your average adult will negligently handle a firearm. I think an armed person in a school would be extra safe with it. I think the average American can expertly use a firearm if they wanted. Some of the wisest people of history thought so too.
 
Can anyone tell me what the first post was so that I don’t get sucked into reading 12 pages of this?

I can sum it up easily. The first 6 or 7 pages is 2 or 3 people arguing everyone should have a background INVESTIGATION (not just a check), to include social media searches, to get approval for a firearm purchase. Everyone else hardily rejected it. The last half has mostly argued over whether teachers should be trained and armed if they volunteer for it, and whether or not a good guy with a gun actually can stop a bad guy. Again, 2 or 3 advocating that no one but 20 year SWAT veterans could have stood a chance at stopping this kid; who himself probably hadn't shot that rifle more than a couple of times before 2/14. The rest of us handily rejected that logic.
 
NateKirk said:
Your argument up to this point is that a hobbyists skill level, a civilian mindset, and a reliance on the folksy adage "it's better to be lucky than good," is an adequate defense against an irrational killer who has the advantage of choosing the setting and time of conflict, and more than likely possesses superior weapons.

Why do you assume that the mass shooter is some fearless unstoppable monster that requires a highly-trained individual or SWAT to stop them, but any ordinary citizen shooting at them is just going to be some total nervous defensive-minded, cowardly klutz? What makes you think the person will have a "civilian" mindset? People inclined to be klutzes probably won't carry to begin with. In terms of fear, that all depends on the person. The person might be afraid, or they might be someone the mass shooter themselves will be afraid of.

To rebuke this is is to say you believe that no training is necessary to defend yourself, or that you agree that high quality, regular training should be completed if authority figures are to arm themselves in school.

My opinion is just allow concealed-carry for those teachers that would want to do it, not try arming teachers to be pseudo-police (although if they are to have regular, intensive training, they actually would be significantly better-trained than the average police officer most likely).
 
I do not believe training should ever be mandatory for gun owners (and especially not considering that most gun deaths are suicides and homicides, not due to negligent discharges), but if you acquire a gun, I'd say definitely get training.
 
Granted I'm retired Navy. My main training in the navy was not "small arms" the weapons I trained on were much bigger. the smallest of them weighed over 900 lbs. I have noted some police dept. require their people to qualify on a course file that expends 50 rounds and do this once a year. Perhaps firing in total practice and qualifying 150-200 rounds. Their was a time were I would work out at the range and use about 200 rounds a MONTH. After I had been retired for a few years.

One time at the range a fellow shooter was using his M1A on the old classic IPSC target at 100 yards. He invited me to shoot at it with my Colt 1991A1. I put 6 out of 8 in the A zone. I never had any formal training. Yet some people here claim a civilian needs extensive training to be able to do this.

To add, I was an average shooter in the group I shot pistol with. It was an ad hoc combat action shooting like IPSC or IDPA.
 
Why do you assume that the mass shooter is some fearless unstoppable monster that requires a highly-trained individual or SWAT to stop them, but any ordinary citizen shooting at them is just going to be some total nervous defensive-minded, cowardly klutz?

You misinterpret my meaning. I'm not implying that a mass shooter is unstoppable; the point I'm trying to make is that in order to not only give the defender the best chance, but to ensure the safety of bystanders, some level of quality training and a copious amount of practice is going to be required.

Please quote me where I ever said that this had to be, police, SWAT, or military, style and level of training.

What makes you think the person will have a "civilian" mindset?

Because they are untrained civilians.

People inclined to be klutzes probably won't carry to begin with.

Wishful thinking, and not what I have seen from the people taking CPL courses.

In terms of fear, that all depends on the person. The person might be afraid, or they might be someone the mass shooter themselves will be afraid of.

Fear isn't the issue. Even if both parties, the shooter and the defender are absolutely terrified of each other, if they both have a weapon they are going to engage each other should they meet. The proposed training isn't to instill bravery or prepare them to seek out and dispatch the killer themselves (though many I'm sure would rightly feel responsible being armed.) It is to prepare the ones carrying to defend themselves effectively while minimizing risk to bystanders.

My opinion is just allow concealed-carry for those teachers that would want to do it, not try arming teachers to be pseudo-police

Then we are in agreement, arm the teachers that want to do it. Lets be sure they know what they are doing.

Where all teachers be armed, quote me where I said that, and where we train them as police officers, quote me where I said that as well.
 
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