Not enough crimp ????? , at range now

M

Metal god

New member
So I’m getting some bullet pulling foward in my 357 reloads . Load is 125gr xtp , 7.3 to 8.5gr Win 231 . Fed case , CCI 550 primer .

First load i checked was 7.9gr with a .004 bullet pull out on the 6th round . Checked the next load at 8.1gr and had .006 of bullet pull out . I stopped there and I’m going to my next loadings to test which is 158gr jhp and H-110 . The crimp is a little more on those but not much . I’m expecting the bullets to move on those as well . I’ll post a pick of my crimp in a few minutes after i test a couple of these H-110 loads .

EDIT :

I went a head and finished the rest of the load progression of the 125gr XTP and Win 231 later . All went fine and the best load ended up being higher then the 8.1 where I had stopped earlier .
 
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This is the crimp on the H-110 load that had .004 bullet pull out .

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I’m also getting soot all the way down to the rim of the case on these H-110 loads and its filling the groove turning it black .
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Where’s the love ? Nobody responded before im leaving . Looks like the H-110 loads are GTG crimp is holding . I have another load that is using mixed brass and the blazer brass is letting the bullet pull forward while the thicker GFL brass is keeping hold of the bullet . This is something I’ve come across before when mixing brass in 45acp . The thinner brass don’t crimp the case as much . If i set the crimp die to crimp the thin walled brass it really bites down on the thicker walled stuff . I hate inconsistency when loading and is why I hate mixing brass but I keep being told it makes no difference . I say bull pucky !

Here’s the Blazer crimp and or the lighter crimp then the one I used on the H-110 loads

byLQBV.jpg
 
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Your pix are too large to be useful.The one roll crimp I could see seemed like a good solid crimp.
That last pic,the crimp may be a bit light.

I'd consider two factors. Likely your expander is the correct size,but neck tension works hand in hand with crimp. Bullet dia may be a factor. You can easily check that.

Factor two,IMO,most likely.

You are crimping into a groove,yes? It might be the bullet can pull .004 or .006 till the bullet solidly meets the crimp.If the travel stops there,you have no problem.
If I read it right,the jacketed bullets did not move? Maybe the knurled cannelure does not allow the same slack a groove does.

I don't load .357 and I don't know recommended H-110 charges. In .44 Magnum,black cases with H-110 would probably indicate too light of a load.H-110 is unsuitable for less than high pressure loads.Another powder might be better.(Or,load at near max) A Magnum primer may help.

If the length only changes .004 or .006 then stops,I'b call it good
 
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In almost fifty years of loading and shooting 357mag in lots of handguns and rifles I've never had a problem with bullets pulling out past a cannelure. Even the lightest roll crimp has always held it in place. The cannelure itself is wide enough in most bullets to be able to measure some minute movement within the cannelure itself if it's crimped at the bottom of the cannelure. If your bullets are moving past the cannelure you simply don't have any crimp on the bullet at all. I've never had any problem mixing brands of brass either. The only bullets that have ever moved on me were cast bullets with no crimp groove and were only held in place by a taper crimp (not 357mag loads). It's possible that you didn't put any crimp on the XTP bullets and need to adjust your die.
 
Thanks guys , I'm home now and on my computer was able to resize the pics .Not sure how to do that from my phone yet .

Good point about the bullets moving a little bit until the crimp presses up against the lower end of the crimp grove . I'm crimping when the case mouth is right at the top of the crimp groove so maybe that's allowing the bullet to move a tad . No bullet regardless of load today moved more then .006 with most that moved only moved .004 but I will give those others a little more crimp next time . I wish I had a micrometer crimp die so I can note the setting for each load like I do with my rifle seater dies .

The H-110 loads stayed sooty and even spit a little something back at me a few times . Previously when testing loads I had gotten a few sticky extractions . Today I brought a cleaning brush and some patches . Brushing out the cylinder after every few loads ( 12 to 18 shots ) kept the cases from sticking this time . This leads me to think it's that blow back/sooty cases causing stuff to build up in the cylinder and hanging up the brass rather then high pressures causing it .
 
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In almost fifty years of loading and shooting 357mag in lots of handguns and rifles I've never had a problem with bullets pulling out past a cannelure. Even the lightest roll crimp has always held it in place.
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Thirty-four years here.

But then, A: I never knew about bullet pull-out in revolvers until I got on the interweb. B: I've never measured; so I don't actually know if my ammo experiences his phenomenon. But then, I haven't had any problems either.

I know the roll crimp in the pic sure looks healthy. The pic is fuzzy but I'm pretty sure I don't crimp that heavily.
 
I think you are overthinking things a little. .004-6" movement is nothing, unless the bullet jumps the crimp tiny movement is irrelevant.

What gun are you shooting them out of?? How much force "pulls" the bullet during revolver recoil varies with the load and the weight of the gun. (and, also the way it is held when fired)

Smokey cases (and crap left in the cylinder) is often the result of too low a pressure to seal the case against the chamber walls, and/or incomplete combustion of the powder.

HOWEVER, its not the only possible cause. A load with correct pressure can still leave smokey cases, if there is powder gas "hanging around" AFTER the pressure drops and the case unseals from the chamber. Gas can then travel between the case and chamber walls, leaving crap and smokey brass.

Mixed brass doesn't matter in some situations, in others, its a foolish thing to do. If I'm making .38 SPL loads at 850fps, I don't bother sorting brass by headstamp (length, yes, brand, no). But if I'm making magnum level ammo, then I want uniformity all the way around, length, capacity, thickness, etc., and sorting by headstamp is the best way to start.

only been reloading about 45 years, so, I don't know it all, but like the Farmer's insurance commercials, I've seen a lot....:D
 
The firearm is a 6" GP-100 so pretty heavy . I was resting my wrist and part of my hand on a shooting bag . I'm a good size guy and grip pretty tight but no death grip or anything .

The fact I tested 3 different sets of components , 7 different charges each for a total of 126 rounds fired and measured the 6th round on most of them . None moved more the .006 and never came close to jumping the crimp groove so I think I'm good as far as crimp goes .

The blurry pick is in fact a heavy crimp . The heaviest I've done to date and because I was doing full power 357mag loads using H-110 . Maybe I did about the same crimp on some 180 XTP loads I did using 2400 .

Since I've been loading for handgun ( about 3 years maybe a tad less ) I use these terms to describe my crimps

Light = 9mm , 45acp
Light/medium = 9mm , 45acp & 5.56
Medium = 357mag , 5.56 , 30-30 , 308
Medium/heavy = 357mag , 30-30
Heavy = Full throttle 357mag pushing heavy bullets 158gr+

I understand what I mean by all that . How ever it's only a feel that tells me where I'm at in that . Yes I can see the difference from a light/medium and a heavy crimp by just looking but the difference from one step to the next is really a feel thing .

I'm going to make a graduating hash marked sticker to put on my crimp die so I can be a little more consistent with my crimps .
 
Watch out for the sides of the case over top of the bullet's bearing surface pulling away from it with a heavy roll crimp. The Redding Profile Crimp die avoids that by having a taper crimp below the roll crimp to keep the sides trapped while the roll is done. It will, however, be sensitive to different brass thickness, same as a standard crimp die, so you still want to sort brass with it. The other die that won't bulge brass away from the sides and won't be sensitive to brass thickness if you apply the same crimp pressure each time is the Lee Collet Style Crimp Die that impresses the crimp inward in a ring, and it is not expensive to bget a copy to try out.
 
"I think you are overthinking things a little. .004-6" movement is nothing, unless the bullet jumps the crimp tiny movement is irrelevant."


^^^^THIS^^^^
 
Watch out for the sides of the case over top of the bullet's bearing surface pulling away from it
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Sorry but I have no idea what that means . Maybe I do but I'm not reading it right . Is that the same as jumping the crimp groove ? Meaning the bullet has pulled out enough that the mouth of the case is below the crimp groove ?

So that's what the Lee factory crimp die for rifles is called ( collet crimp die ) I have those dies in 308 , 270 , 223 & 30-30 . I had no idea they made them for pistol cartridges . I'll pick one up for sure , I like them .
 
Unclenick knows about a thousand times as much as I do about this, but if I understand him correctly, he is referring to the possibility of overcrimping making the bullet more loose in the case.

Tension on the bullet along the case wall is a significant factor in retaining the bullet in the proper position. If you overdo the crimp, you can actually bow the case out away from the bullet along the rest of the surface of the case that is in contact with the bullet and make the bullet less secure and more mobile.

Unclenick can correct me if I am misinterpreting what he says or otherwise screwing up, but I think that is what he is referring to.
 
TailGator said:
Unclenick knows about a thousand times as much as I do about this, but if I understand him correctly, he is referring to the possibility of overcrimping making the bullet more loose in the case.
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Kinda what I'm thinkin' too, and exactly what I was going to say. Sometimes one can crimp too much and produce less neck tension. Over crimping can bulge the case behind the crimp producing less neck tension or over crimping can actually crimp/swage the bullet. Bullets are generally harder than case brass and thus less prone to spring back like the case when crimped. Again, less neck tension.
 
Ok that makes sense , i did not read it that way but after rereading it again I’d agree that’s what he was saying . If I’m working on a new load that has a different setting on the crimp die or really any new load . I do a plunk test in to the cylinder to be sure they drop in and out real easy before continuing with the rest .
 
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I just put a little more thought to the bullet hold or lack of if you have too much crimp. I will from now on measure the diameter of the case where the bullet is seated in the case before and after i crimp to be sure it’s not pulling away from the bullet . EDIT : My thinking is that even if the case pulled away from the bullet a little reducing bullet hold . The cartridge would still likely pass the plunk test .
 
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There are a couple other things to consider when it comes to "overcrimping". Brass is more elastic than lead. And while it is quite possible to "bow" the brass out (below the crimp), it is also possible for a hard crimp to compress (squeeze) the bullet smaller at that point, and the brass can spring back more than the bullet does when it comes out of the die.

This can result in a case where the brass is turned into the crimp groove, well, and LOOKS ok, but actually doesn't grip as well. I have seen ammo made where you could rotate the bullet in the case. You couldn't pull it out, the crimp held it in place, but only in front to back direction.

The brass "pulling away" over the bearing surface of the bullet is easily seen if you make a screw up, and try to crimp where there is no crimp groove. (and yes, I've done it...:o) Get your die setting wrong for the case length and it can happen. And, actually rifle cases (bottleneck) are very prone to this. Miss the crimp groove/cannelure and the case can bulge out just below the crimp. OR bulge out at the shoulder, resulting in a round that will not chamber. I've done that, too. .30-30 is a bad one for that.
 
Brass is more elastic than lead. And while it is quite possible to "bow" the brass out (below the crimp), it is also possible for a hard crimp to compress (squeeze) the bullet smaller at that point, and the brass can spring back more than the bullet does when it comes out of the die.
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I'm always worried about my bullet hold on my 45acp loads when using thick walled cases for that very reason , well kind of . The carbide ring on my Lee FCD for 45acp swages down my cases more then actually necessary . I'm concerned I end up with less bullet hold after crimping then I do before . I barely put a crimp on those 45acp rounds if any but the die still swages the case at that baring surface area . My thinking is that the case springs back while the bullet stays swaged .

Every once and a great while my 9mm FCD will swage a round but that's not often and when it does it's more like it just rubs as it goes by rather then actually getting swaged . My 357 FCD does not swage any of the rounds either . Well not yet anyways , I've only loaded 5 or 6 hundred rounds so far . That is with 4 different bullets by three different manufactures using both same head stamps and mixed brass . My guess is , I will not likely see any swaging in my 357 FCD in the future either . How ever my 45acp FCD swages every case with the thicker walled cases actually popping in and out of the die .
 
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Metal_god:
Why would you use any crimp at all past the point of simply straightening
out/"de-belling" the case mouth on any of these semi-auto rounds ?
 
Why would you use any crimp at all past the point of simply straightening
out/"de-belling" the case mouth on any of these semi-auto rounds ?
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The obvious answer is "to keep the bullets where you want them".

In addition to that, I find that my taper crimp aids the round feeding, and its also necessary to ensure better ignition of very slow powders.

I don't have or use the Lee Factory crimp dies, and so am not going to tell you how to adjust them, or if you're doing it right, or wrong.

I can tell you how to do it with standard dies (or at least the way I do it, ;)) and its been working for me since the early 70s.

You do need to pay attention to case length, and case neck thickness. If you want it to be "set it, and forget it" you need to be meticulous with your brass prep and sorting.

I've always operated my presses by "feel". Or perhaps its more precise to say that the "feel" of the press gives me the feedback to know if things are ok, or something is wrong. This is one of the disadvantages (for me) of progressive presses. The effort needed to do several things at once easily masks the tiny change in the feel that is noticeable on a single stage press.

For me, being able to notice the different in the feel of the press handle (amount and degree of resistance) when something went wrong, and instantly stopping at that point, has saved me from damaging or destroying the components. When I began reloading, I was a kid mowing lawns and shoveling snow for spending money, and every case, bullet, and primer were precious and valuable. That has pretty much stayed with me ever since.
 
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