stagpanther
New member
Anyone tried it yet? What do you think--and how does it compare to alternatives? I'd like to try Lapua's but it's unobtanium.
Norma 22lr Extra Long Range
- Thread starter stagpanther
- Start date
I got hold of a brick.
Goodshootinginc sent me an email it was in stock.
If I can get a break between fronts and northeasters,
there's gonna be a Grid (50 shots), a 50 at 100 yards
and a 50 at 200 yards with chronograph data for each box.
Just a matter of when.
CZ 455 Lilja on a Sinclair F-Class bipod and rear bag.
Do I expect spectacular results? No.
It's a mid grade cartridge with a new label.
The original price in the European market was half that of benchrest ammo.
Goodshootinginc sent me an email it was in stock.
If I can get a break between fronts and northeasters,
there's gonna be a Grid (50 shots), a 50 at 100 yards
and a 50 at 200 yards with chronograph data for each box.
Just a matter of when.
CZ 455 Lilja on a Sinclair F-Class bipod and rear bag.
Do I expect spectacular results? No.
It's a mid grade cartridge with a new label.
The original price in the European market was half that of benchrest ammo.
stagpanther
New member
I have two CZ 457's--but I go for their long barrels, in my experience they shoot much better than short barrel ones. My jaguar does really well with norma's Tac 22--not quite X-act or tenex well; but not far from it. I'm willing to give it a try. Between Norma's extra long range and Lapua's extra long range ammos I haven't been able to discern from the specs exactly what it is that makes them better at the "extra long" range--though I think one of them has a hollowed out base of some sort. I'm getting it direct from Norma--and it's not mid-grade priced, that's for sure.
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stagpanther
New member
Mine came in and can't wait to try it out--the configuration numbers look good to me, the velocity is very close to what I get with R100 which has done very well out of my jaguar at 200 to 300 yards--but the Norma is using a 43 gr bullet.
Beautiful day here today on the coast of Maine--except that it's blowing around 20+ mph.
Beautiful day here today on the coast of Maine--except that it's blowing around 20+ mph.
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FrankenMauser
New member
I have seen both companies claim that they "optimized the ballistic coefficient [or drag]" of the bullet.
Seems like they just tried to increase weight and give them a flat point.
Seems like they just tried to increase weight and give them a flat point.
stagpanther
New member
Looks like a fairly typical RN profile to me, the only thing that jumps out to me as that the bearing surface ribs are not as pronounced as they are on other 22lr bullets. I'll do some measurements and comparisons.
I've done lots of shooting in the 200+ yard range and I still think that a design that starts out just a bit above supersonic and is opitimized to go transonic and stabilize soon after leaving the muzzle is the one that does best (for me out of my rifle barrels anyway).
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Jim Watson
New member
Early days of BPCR .22 that seemed to be the thinking. A low velocity 50 yard round might not carry up to longer range.
stagpanther
New member
It's counterintuitive--we tend to think of 22 lr bullets as arcing little things which get "pushed around" by even the slightest puff of wind (which is true)--but the basic 22lr round nose design is exceptionally good in low rate of velocity decay.
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stagpanther
New member
First impressions Norma extreme range and Eley match
Impatience got the better of me--plus a worsening forecast--so I went out to try out not only the Norma extreme range, but another new-to-me ammo, Eley Match. These first impressions are perhaps a bit convoluted since it was pretty foggy and quite windy, no doubt that played a big role in my preliminary results. I at least had the foresight to limit myself to one box of each--once I get going shooting 22lr it's very hard to stop and I can easily end up shooting hundreds of shots before I know it. But the exotic stuff costs about as much as bulk 5.56 ammo--so I have to watch it or it can become a very expensive outing.
because of the winds (15 + MPH) I decided on an "intermediate" distance of 129 yds--longer than the typical 50 to 100 yds but short enough that hopefully I could compensate for the wind with some hope of decent groups. Besides the two new ammos, I also shot a "control" group of Eley Tenex as a kinda comparison. I shot ten shot groups.
All of the ammos did quite well, turning in groups of around 1.5 MOA +\- --in regards to the Eley Match it's worth noting that it's considerably less expensive than the Tenex. In variable windy conditions I could see that it would be a very good choice over Tenex--the primary difference I saw between the two was when I managed to catch some lulls in the wind while shooting the Tenex it would pile them in on top of each other or at least touching, the match couldn't quite equal that.
The Norma extreme range could equal the Tenex in terms of over-all group size; though I don't know if it could equal it in calm conditions, I look forward to trying it out then.
Mulling it over in my mind, though, the Norma extreme range is still very impressive to me in this first test. It's firing a heavier bullet at 43 grs, and at the distance of 129 yards it was impacting about 5 to 6 inches above the other ammo groups. Presumably, the Norma ammo is optimized for longer ranges but nonetheless was right there at least the equaling the other ammos in group sizes which are optimized for closer ranges. If the Norma truly does do better at extreme long range (not sure what that actually means in terms of distance--though I assume 300 yds or better). This tells me they may have found a sweet spot for an ammo that is versatile enough to work from close to long range--something that is quite difficult in 22lr in my experience. I look forward to more testing.
Impatience got the better of me--plus a worsening forecast--so I went out to try out not only the Norma extreme range, but another new-to-me ammo, Eley Match. These first impressions are perhaps a bit convoluted since it was pretty foggy and quite windy, no doubt that played a big role in my preliminary results. I at least had the foresight to limit myself to one box of each--once I get going shooting 22lr it's very hard to stop and I can easily end up shooting hundreds of shots before I know it. But the exotic stuff costs about as much as bulk 5.56 ammo--so I have to watch it or it can become a very expensive outing.
because of the winds (15 + MPH) I decided on an "intermediate" distance of 129 yds--longer than the typical 50 to 100 yds but short enough that hopefully I could compensate for the wind with some hope of decent groups. Besides the two new ammos, I also shot a "control" group of Eley Tenex as a kinda comparison. I shot ten shot groups.
All of the ammos did quite well, turning in groups of around 1.5 MOA +\- --in regards to the Eley Match it's worth noting that it's considerably less expensive than the Tenex. In variable windy conditions I could see that it would be a very good choice over Tenex--the primary difference I saw between the two was when I managed to catch some lulls in the wind while shooting the Tenex it would pile them in on top of each other or at least touching, the match couldn't quite equal that.
The Norma extreme range could equal the Tenex in terms of over-all group size; though I don't know if it could equal it in calm conditions, I look forward to trying it out then.
Mulling it over in my mind, though, the Norma extreme range is still very impressive to me in this first test. It's firing a heavier bullet at 43 grs, and at the distance of 129 yards it was impacting about 5 to 6 inches above the other ammo groups. Presumably, the Norma ammo is optimized for longer ranges but nonetheless was right there at least the equaling the other ammos in group sizes which are optimized for closer ranges. If the Norma truly does do better at extreme long range (not sure what that actually means in terms of distance--though I assume 300 yds or better). This tells me they may have found a sweet spot for an ammo that is versatile enough to work from close to long range--something that is quite difficult in 22lr in my experience. I look forward to more testing.
I'm going to try some, but it's going to be a while. I have some projects and personal things that will probably keep me from the range until August, maybe September. We are in the process of a home renovation among other things so I'm going to be busy.
I've shot a fair bit at 200 yards and occasionally as far as 250 yards with a 22. The cheap bulk ammo isn't nearly accurate enough. Good standard velocity target ammo is more consistent, but beyond 100 yards the trajectory becomes near impossible to account for.
I've been using 36 gr CCI Mini-Mags. They aren't supposed to be terribly accurate but in my rifles, it shoots MOA most of the time out to 200 yards. In calm wind. I'm simply wasting ammo at 200 yards with any wind.
I do get the occasional flyer that opens up the groups that I don't get with target ammo. Other than the occasional flyer there is darn little difference in group sizes at 50-100 yards. I can deal with the arched trajectory with target ammo at 100, but not 200.
I've shot a fair bit at 200 yards and occasionally as far as 250 yards with a 22. The cheap bulk ammo isn't nearly accurate enough. Good standard velocity target ammo is more consistent, but beyond 100 yards the trajectory becomes near impossible to account for.
I've been using 36 gr CCI Mini-Mags. They aren't supposed to be terribly accurate but in my rifles, it shoots MOA most of the time out to 200 yards. In calm wind. I'm simply wasting ammo at 200 yards with any wind.
I do get the occasional flyer that opens up the groups that I don't get with target ammo. Other than the occasional flyer there is darn little difference in group sizes at 50-100 yards. I can deal with the arched trajectory with target ammo at 100, but not 200.
stagpanther
New member
I was able to move out a bit further to 170 yards this evening, the winds were much lighter tonight though still a slight crossing of about 5 mph. I shot several groups each of the Eley match and Norma extreme LR; while they both were Ok-ish in the 2 MOA area I also shot a 10 shot group of the Tenex to finish (in the growing darkness at 8:00 pm I might add) and it trounced both the extreme and match with a group about half the size of either.
FrankenMauser
New member
Windy day here, as well.
I had three to test.
Dead calm at the house. "Hmmm. I should go test the [things requiring attention]."
From thought to range was about 22 minutes.
At the range, blowing 25-40 mph, swirling, and gusting.
Project one got sighted in quickly and printed groups like it used to, before it got unreliable and unpredictable. (Springfield 2020R. I JB Weld-ed the chamber face -- more on that later, if it holds up.)
Hammerli Force B1 took some time to sight in, because I kept turning the windage dial the wrong way. (Laugh. Please. It was a dumb mistake, even at a rookie level.) But it was solid after that, having been returned to "fun plinker" configuration. --Arguably 'too' solid - it out-shot everything else with every ammo type that I fed it.
Marlin 70P did what they do, and it pooped all over itself.
So, I returned to the Springfield 2020R.
Shot about a dozen groups, from 6-round to 10-round, before loading every magazine and finishing my session by shooting the shotgun shells littering the range. Anyway, back to the subject, even though I love shooting shotgun shells on the range....
While shooting groups, I noticed that terrible trend that we have been talking about for some time.
Ammo that leaves that barrel 'just barely' super-sonic tends to group better than ammo that is well into super territory, or ammo that is totally subsonic.
Totally unreasonable conclusion reached: I need a CZ 457 Jaguar with its 28" barrel, for further testing.
I had three to test.
Dead calm at the house. "Hmmm. I should go test the [things requiring attention]."
From thought to range was about 22 minutes.
At the range, blowing 25-40 mph, swirling, and gusting.
Project one got sighted in quickly and printed groups like it used to, before it got unreliable and unpredictable. (Springfield 2020R. I JB Weld-ed the chamber face -- more on that later, if it holds up.)
Hammerli Force B1 took some time to sight in, because I kept turning the windage dial the wrong way. (Laugh. Please. It was a dumb mistake, even at a rookie level.) But it was solid after that, having been returned to "fun plinker" configuration. --Arguably 'too' solid - it out-shot everything else with every ammo type that I fed it.
Marlin 70P did what they do, and it pooped all over itself.
So, I returned to the Springfield 2020R.
Shot about a dozen groups, from 6-round to 10-round, before loading every magazine and finishing my session by shooting the shotgun shells littering the range. Anyway, back to the subject, even though I love shooting shotgun shells on the range....
While shooting groups, I noticed that terrible trend that we have been talking about for some time.
Ammo that leaves that barrel 'just barely' super-sonic tends to group better than ammo that is well into super territory, or ammo that is totally subsonic.
Totally unreasonable conclusion reached: I need a CZ 457 Jaguar with its 28" barrel, for further testing.
stagpanther
New member
I don't know what is terrible about it--other than it seems to be very hard to get performance optimized in just one ammo type for all distances. The subsonic still seems to reign supreme in the 50 yd range it seems to me. As for the barrel length, I just put a 24" CZ barrel set on my other 457 and it seems to do just as well as my jaguar so far, but I haven't been able to shoot it at 200 yards or more due to heavy construction activity in the quarry I normally shoot at. Major bummer as I really need to do some testing of more than one rifle out to 300 yards.
Mine came in and can't wait to try it out--the configuration numbers look good to me, the velocity is very close to what I get with R100 which has done very well out of my jaguar at 200 to 300 yards--but the Norma is using a 43 gr bullet.
Beautiful day here today on the coast of Maine--except that it's blowing around 20+ mph.
I noticed on goodshooting.com that they show the extreme long range to have a 400 ms and 1312 fps advertised speed. Is that where you got your box from? The 1312 fps sounds more like the new SK high velocity which championschoice as had in stock for months.
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stagpanther
New member
Must be a misprint--it says right on the box what the velocity is. 1300 fps or more--especially with a heavier bullet--is a very fast load. I ordered mine direct from Norma.
That's much faster than R100 which is rated at 345ms and Lapua Super Long Range which is rated at 337ms (each lot varies of course).
I was able to pick up a couple of bricks of the Lapua Long range which on my Xero showed to produce average speeds around 1,105 fps out of a 20" barrel. It's speeds were consistent with the advertised lot speed since the lot started with 37 or 337 ms. While there has been absolutely no RWS R50 or R100 available since Beretta bought them out there has still been some Lapua available if you catch the suppliers at the right time.
When I was looking up the R100 specs since I always shoot R50 I noticed they now list a long range RWS rimfire round they call the R Plus Long Range rated at 355 ms that also has the heavier 43gr bullet. Odd they used a Bergera in there promo advertisement for the round. Not sure how long they have produced it but it's the first time I had seen it.
https://youtu.be/lCGaKpJ7exs
https://youtu.be/lCGaKpJ7exs
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stagpanther
New member
RWS R 50 and R100 shoot great out of my CZ jaguar; R100 in particular I've had very good results all the way out to 300 yards provided the air is dead-calm. Like the Norma supa dupah stuff, I wonder if the "extra long range" means it will hold its own when the others finally start dispersing worse.
I really don't know since I hadn't even seen the R Plus Long Range until I was looking today. I know when it comes to stdev I always see some of the best results with RWS ammunition. Even though it's not obtainable at this time I'm lucky enough to still have a half a case of R50 right now and since I don't shoot long distances I rarely buy the R100 and only got the Lapua Long Range to try. My rifles seem to shoot best with R50, Center-X or Midas +.
stagpanther
New member
BTW--I received notice from Midway USA that they have Eley's Ultra ELR ammo in stock--I ordered some of it to try out.