NOOOOO not another M1A vs. AR10 thread!

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After reading this thread and doing a little research on the web I have decided to get a M14/M1A rifle as my second rifle.

I also purchased a M1A a while ago after "much research". I'm very happy with my gun, but saying a STOCK M1A, without modifications can shoot .4 MOA consistently? I sort-of don't fully believe it. The link you posted was a National Match, however, so maybe.

My BEST was 1.5" MOA with Match 168gr bullets. Im sure if I seat my bullets into the lands, it'll go under 1", but then I'll have to load the gun 1 round at a time.

2 modifications I think M1A owners should take advantage of.
1) Tubbs Final Finish
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=513887
2) Glass Bedding
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=790049

both are DIY. And cheap
 
This M1A thing is complicated..........after extensive research (8 hours on the web) I am thoroughly confused. I am going to run to my gunsmith and ask a lot of questions.
 
Asking your gunsmith M1A or AR10 should get you a definitive reply. He should recommend the one that gives him more business in upgrades and work - the M1A. It takes a gunsmith to accurize, as so many of the operations are machinist grade work.

The AR10, oh no, not that POS, because YOU CAN WORK ON IT AT HOME. It's easy work, and most of it on the internet. That's the beauty of the Stoner design - he got the gunsmithing out of it so that a 23 year old armorer could pretty much do it all just replacing parts. Ironically, the tradition bound Army won't let him.

What does it take to upgrade each? Barrel - AR10, square the upper, insert the new barrel, tighten the barrel nut, and install the gas tube. A special vice block is optional, you can use jaw inserts for much less. M1A, a special block to hold the receiver is much more necessary, headspace gauges required, and setting the headspace to within +/- .0005 necessary. It's much more complicated.

Free floating the AR10 means installing a proprietary barrel nut, attaching the tube, and if it's equpped with a low profile gas block, done. M1A, the stock has to be inletted, glass epoxy used to fit the action, and that pesky barrel band removed or relieved - as long as a sling is attached and it can move the barrel, all is for nought. Slings on free float AR10's attach to the tube.

There's dozens of other details, the optics platform of the A3 type upper offers far superior scope mounting vs. the side mount cantilevered versions forced by the top eject exposed bolt of the M1A. And once done, the fact that the Stoner design has taken the top dozen places over the M1A for the last decade doesn't help. The AR is inherently cheaper, easier to work on, more accurate, and easier to use, too.

The M1A isn't the better choice.
 
Asking your gunsmith M1A or AR10 should get you a definitive reply. He should recommend the one that gives him more business in upgrades and work - the M1A. It takes a gunsmith to accurize, as so many of the operations are machinist grade work.


I am just doing my part to keep the economy moving. Besides gun talk makes for good conversation. The M1A might not be the better option but with a capable gunsmith, a shooting instructor, and a friendly gun club as my support I think I will enjoy whole experience. Just like I enjoy archery, fishing, and home brewing.
 
tirod said:
Asking your gunsmith M1A or AR10 should get you a definitive reply. He should recommend the one that gives him more business in upgrades and work - the M1A. It takes a gunsmith to accurize, as so many of the operations are machinist grade work.

Totally disagree on having to have a machinist gunsmith to accurize an M1A. Just with some basic hand tools, some shims, sanding rod and careful measurements, a fella can easily bring down group sizes to a very respectable and repeatable level. Here's a few examples of basic tweaks.

- Clearance all the rubs off the stock, especially the gas cylinder and op rod guide.

- Install a shim kit from Fulton or Smith Ent. to trap that front band lengthen dwell time.

- Tighten the receivers fit to the stock with roof flashing or such to prevent slip but enhance draw.

- Clear any rubs from the handgaurd by at least 1/16".

This basic stuff gets instant results from a do-it-yourselfer. Helps to do a little study time on sites like M14TFL and look hard at their "stickies" section. Lots of info to help a guy do his own thing. Good luck no matter which way you go. They are all fine rifles.

 
SmokyBaer

Just with some basic hand tools, some shims, sanding rod and careful measurements, a fella can easily bring down group sizes to a very respectable and repeatable level. Here's a few examples of basic tweaks.

- Clearance all the rubs off the stock, especially the gas cylinder and op rod guide.

- Install a shim kit from Fulton or Smith Ent. to trap that front band lengthen dwell time.

- Tighten the receivers fit to the stock with roof flashing or such to prevent slip but enhance draw.

- Clear any rubs from the handgaurd by at least 1/16".

This basic stuff gets instant results from a do-it-yourselfer.

Agreed!
 
SmokyBaer said:
Totally disagree on having to have a machinist gunsmith to accurize an M1A. Just with some basic hand tools, some shims, sanding rod and careful measurements, a fella can easily bring down group sizes to a very respectable and repeatable level. Here's a few examples of basic tweaks.

- Clearance all the rubs off the stock, especially the gas cylinder and op rod guide.

- Install a shim kit from Fulton or Smith Ent. to trap that front band lengthen dwell time.

- Tighten the receivers fit to the stock with roof flashing or such to prevent slip but enhance draw.

- Clear any rubs from the handgaurd by at least 1/16".

This basic stuff gets instant results from a do-it-yourselfer. Helps to do a little study time on sites like M14TFL and look hard at their "stickies" section. Lots of info to help a guy do his own thing. Good luck no matter which way you go. They are all fine rifles.

Right on! A good tabletop gunsmith can diy all the M1A accuracy mods. Rebarreling is best left to a smith with M14 experience as most do not have a lathe in their shop. Reaming the flash suppressor, screw and glue the gas cylinder may take a few special tools but is not beyond the diy'er.

There's a lot more to building a precision AR than adding a floating tube. Blue print the upper, bed the extension and gas block, tune the gas system for starters.

Both platforms can be improved upon out of the box.
 
I hate to throw a curve ball in the soup, but for the intended use set forth by the original poster, why not just get an AR-15 w/ a 5.56mm NATO chamber?

He intends to use this for target shooting and varmint hunting. I'm not sure of many varmints up through the size of even coyotes that require more than the .223 is capable of killing. And as far as target shooting the ammo is much less expensive for the .223 option (regardless whether you reload or buy factory .223 is still cheaper).

If this is to be a "go to war" type battle rifle - I'd opt for the FN-FAL, or the G3 that he already has. I also prefer the m1a over the AR-10 platform because it has that certain panache that the AR-10 just totally lacks. Yes AR-10 is probably more accurate, easier to accessorise, and mags are more readily available these days for it. It just lacks that oh so good walnut and metal feel of the m-14 type. And the m-14 is a pretty accurate rifle in and of itself.

For the OP's intended uses - just get an AR-15 and be done w/ it.
 
Well, as far as the AR15 issue, I already have an AR build in progress, mostly because I already have lots of ammo, mags, parts, etc. -but- I would like to have a 308 just to see if It will do a little better in the wind at longer ranges. I live in North Central Oregon near the Gorge which is known for the constant air movement that ranges from gentle breeze to hurricane-ish but it's pretty constant. Plus, I might eventualy use the rifle for Deer, Antilope, and hopefully Hogs. Do I need a 308semi-auto rifle? No not realy, I already have semi's in .223,7.62x39, & 30 carbine Plus hunting rifles in 243,30-06,7-08,257roberts,30-30,7.65x54arg, and probably more I'm forgetting. But I like my G3 clone in 308, and I want to replace it with a rifle that uses the same hard-hitting round but easily scopable, with a good trigger.
 
They are both good(m-1a vs AR)
For me,the scale tips for the AR.A small point to clarify,DPMS uses 2 different receivers.Detractors like to comment on the Sportical receiver,which is the lowest priced.It has no dust cover or forward assist.DPMS makes a whole zoo of other models,all with the forward assist and dust cover .These are not extrusions.DPMS makes the Rem R-25 receiver.
I believe RR makes good stuff.but check carefully on the magazine choices.
I believe the RRuses FAL mags.Works fine in the FAL,but maybe not in an AR.
MagPul is now making P-mags for the DPMS-Rem-Knight versions.I am not sure of the status of C-Products,but their LR-308 mags are fine by me.The one DPMS brand mag I have,I have not bothered to fix,it does not feed.
On triggers,you might want to try an AR 2 stage if you can find one.They are not the same as a ww1 milsurp bolt gun.
A RR 2 stage NM trigger is pretty good at $135.The AR15 one will work.(in a DPMS) The Giselle enhanced is non-adjustable,but very nice.
 
DPMS makes a whole zoo of other models,all with the forward assist and dust cover .These are not extrusions.

DPMS states on their web site that their uppers (.308) are extruded. With all the DPMS rifles in service and happy owners it apparently works OK.
 
oldcars said:
.... But I like my G3 clone in 308, and I want to replace it with a rifle that uses the same hard-hitting round but easily scopable, with a good trigger.

Hey, I love the magic of my M1As but for a little less money and a bit more accuracy out of the box, you may want to consider an FNAR. Basic mechanics of a Browning BAR but enhanced with a 10 or 20 round magazine. My FNAR will outshoot the M1As any and everyday. It just has the same metal plastic feel of an AR. Kinda ugly too but it does shoot great. Comes with a factory pic rail on top for a nice scope and little rails for bipod and/or light kits.
Here's a pic of my setup...


MVC-8512.jpg


Here's a typical group I took a pic of last year just to show what it will do right out of the box, new scope @100 yds...
FNARDimeat100.jpg
 
How 'bout...?

Operational familiarity/commonality figuring into the equation?

Start by selling/trading the G3 Brass Killer.
Use the money to fund a 5.56x45/.223 rifle.

Then, buy your 7.62x51/.308 rifle.
Matching the way they operate could be like this:

M1A + Mini-14

or

AR10 + AR15


With the AR's, you would even have some parts that would be interchangable.
Minor stuff, but you'd have that option.

Based on your preference for target/varmint use, plus reloading, I believe the AR-style rifle to be the most beneficial for you.
Good luck and have fun shopping! :D
 
That FNR is a nice looking platform, but seems to comparably priced to the M1A (at least at 'broker). Hope it came with more than 1 mag, though. $90-94 for a single 20 round mag is a bit pricey. It obviously is more easily scopable, though.
 
Blue print the upper, bed the extension and gas block, tune the gas system for starters.

All these are advanced long distance precision techniques for the AR, simply because they are more inherently accurate, with less action and stock problems.

- Clearance all the rubs off the stock, especially the gas cylinder and op rod guide.

- Install a shim kit from Fulton or Smith Ent. to trap that front band lengthen dwell time.

- Tighten the receivers fit to the stock with roof flashing or such to prevent slip but enhance draw.

- Clear any rubs from the handgaurd by at least 1/16".


You have to do this with the Garand/M14/M1A precisely because all that messes things up. AR's don't suffer the problem to begin with. Just install a free float, done.

Out of the box, the AR10 needs less work and can shoot more accurately. Long range precision shooters testify they spend half as much money to get equally accurate guns. They also choose to shoot AR's, and consistently hold the top dozen spots in competition over the older guns.

Like them for what they are, the Garand/M14/M1A is a tactical and competitive curio of yesteryear. They are no longer issued to the common soldier or competitive military shooters because they aren't better. They just have a few thousand refits in SWAsia because it was faster and cheaper to do that than wait for SCAR 17s. They could spend budgeted money, and avoid Congress politicizing the problem. It's a simple armament upgrade, like refitting the .308 snipers to .300 Win Mag.

At this rate, the Army won't officiallly shoot .308 as a precision round at all. Times change, even the Germans gave up on 8mm after what, 50 years?
 
The M14 EBRs have evolved into the most reliable and capable MBRs in American military history.
They surpassed their 'stop-gap' status years ago... in my opinion; the M14 EBR is not going away anytime soon.




As for the M1A vs. AR10 question, buy or borrow one of each, shoot them and decide for yourself.
I owned and shot both, I prefer the M14 EBR, others prefer the AR-10 and I support their decision.
 
personally, I'd get an M1A, but the fact that, living in Kommiefornia, and not having a choice may very well have something to do with that :-/
 
The M14 EBRs have evolved into the most reliable and capable MBRs in American military history.

Sorry, but the M14 "EBR" is not an "MBR" regardless of whatever else can be said about it. "Main Battle Rifle" does not equal "small basis of issue specialist weapon." The whole point of the MBR silliness is that it's a universal service rifle in a full power cartridge -- the M14's utter failure in service being one of the pieces of proof that said idea is a non-starter.

They surpassed their 'stop-gap' status years ago... in my opinion; the M14 EBR is not going away anytime soon.

The people who arranged to resurrect the about 0.007% of M14 production back into very limited military service would differ in their estimation of the role of the rifle, but whatever . . . :rolleyes:
 
Sorry, once an MBR always an MBR... it will continue to serve in EBR
form for as long as it's needed and when it's needed once again.
 
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